OSAS, Ex-Christians will receive Greater Damnation?

[Athanasius]

No one "loses" their salvation -- they give it up.

[Partaker of Christ]

You are reading Romans 11 and you don't see this? I say emphatically that Paul tells us to fear! To be not high-minded unless we will be cut off. He says it point blank.

[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

i don't understand how you can use this chapter and then say the things you say. It blows my mind.

Hi stupes!

I think what we have to take into account is that Paul (the master builder) was laying the foundation of church life. Like many of the epistles, they were written to new believers, that had not as yet been grounded and rooted (let alone bare fruit)

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

They will still at the stage of 'profession' of faith, but had (in many cases) not yet grown and bare fruit.
As from the parable of the seed, those that received the word and understood it, are they that keep it, and bare fruit. Jesus also said, "you will know them by their fruit"

So, until we see fruit, we cannot know if they have understood. If you see someone who has fruit, then you know that they are saved and will keep the word they heard with understanding. When you see fruit (though they still grow) you know that they are grounded and rooted (or established)

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

For me, it is akin to 'not loving your brother'

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

[Partaker of Christ]

We know that the Holy Spirit knows more than we know. We have Gods word to tell us that we are not to mock God. Lying to God is not a good plan. They could well have kept a portion of the proceedes from the sale if they wished to but to lie to God in their heart was a bad plan. Perhaps God took them out to prevent further embarassment to His Holy One.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Exactly!

Ananias and Sapphira committed an act of hypocrisy. They pretended they were something they were not.

This was the beginning of the Church, and what Ananias and Sapphira did was an act of hypocrisy. God had to show the young foundational Church, that He will not tolerate hypocrisy.

[Partaker of Christ]

No one "loses" their salvation -- they give it up.

Is that because man is greater then God?

[Butch5]

Exactly!

Ananias and Sapphira committed an act of hypocrisy. They pretended they were something they were not.

This was the beginning of the Church, and what Ananias and Sapphira did was an act of hypocrisy. God had to show the young foundational Church, that He will not tolerate hypocrisy.

That's funny, why doesn't he show the modern church that He will not tolerate hypocrisy?

[Athanasius]

Is that because man is greater then God?

It has nothing to do with man being greater than God. Are the JW's greater than God because they've corrupted Scripture? Of course not. You're creating a false-dichotomy.

[Butch5]

I know we'll disagree on this, Butch and that's ok. To me, you give the sheep way too much credit and the shepherd nowhere near enough.

Christ doesn't go find the sheep because it realizes it is lost - He goes and finds the sheep because it's His.

Hope that makes a bit of sense -
V

That's my point the sheep is lost it has not rejected Christ. Those who reject Christ are no longer sheep.

[Butch5]

If you think it is out of contex, then why not show us?

Who began a good work in you?

Since you posted it, why not show how it pertains to the subject?

[Butch5]

No, I would not. Scripture doesn’t say that all men will be saved.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. (NAS)
Yes all men, through him, preaching the gospel, testifying to Christ, might believe. But they won’t. Christ was the true Light. He lights every man. He is the word made flesh. Through him everything was created. Everything good comes from him. Every man, every person, is a recipient of his goodness, whether saved or not.
I also disagree about the the earlier comment about the sheep. Lost sheep lay down where they are and starve to death. They don't wander back, they have to be got. The Shepherd needs to seek them out and bring them back into the fold. The sheep don't do it on their own. If not for the Shepherd, carrying the Rod and staff, they would perish either by exposure or by ravenous wolves.
blessings,
tt1106

If you agree then how do hold to your claim. If salvation has nothing to do with us, then why aren't all men saved? You said,

tt1106---The choice to be saved doesn't rest with us, because we are incapable of making the right choice.

John said,

John 1:6-9 ( KJV )
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

If nothing is up to us then all men would be saved because Christ lights (gives understanding) to all men that through Him (Christ) all men might believe.

And The point about the sheep is this, Christ goes after the sheep, but those who reject Him are no longer sheep.

[blessedmommyuv3]

And The point about the sheep is this, Christ goes after the sheep, but those who reject Him are no longer sheep.

You've made this statement twice now, Butch, and with all due respect,
I don't understand what you mean.
How can sheep cease to be sheep?

In Christ,
Jen

[Athanasius]

It's a metaphor...

[blessedmommyuv3]

Yes, I understand that much--lol

I just don't follow the metaphor to the end he is using it to make his point.


In Christ,

Jen

[Butch5]

You've made this statement twice now, Butch, and with all due respect,
I don't understand what you mean.
How can sheep cease to be sheep?

In Christ,
Jen

Jen, they aren't real sheep. People can change their minds. Some people may find the Christian life to difficult and may return to the old life. The Scriptures warn against it and give examples of it.

[stupes]

Hi stupes!

I think what we have to take into account is that Paul (the master builder) was laying the foundation of church life. Like many of the epistles, they were written to new believers, that had not as yet been grounded and rooted (let alone bare fruit)

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

They will still at the stage of 'profession' of faith, but had (in many cases) not yet grown and bare fruit.
As from the parable of the seed, those that received the word and understood it, are they that keep it, and bare fruit. Jesus also said, "you will know them by their fruit"

So, until we see fruit, we cannot know if they have understood. If you see someone who has fruit, then you know that they are saved and will keep the word they heard with understanding. When you see fruit (though they still grow) you know that they are grounded and rooted (or established)

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

For me, it is akin to 'not loving your brother'

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Hi Partaker,

With all due respect. Paul does not say any of that - he does not say that the Romans are half grafted in or are not quite there yet because they haven't born fruit. He says nothing of the sort. You are adding words that he does not say at all.

He says this in a clear and thorough teaching about God's Kingdom: You are unnatural branches that have been grafted in and are currently partaking of the life. The natural branches were cut off because of unbelief. You too - will be cut off if you fall into unbelief.

There is no wavering or qualifications in this teaching by Paul. They were in Christ, "saved", when he is talking to them. They are a branch grafted into the tree of life.

To avoid this or sidestep this teaching is again - beyond me.

[My heart's Desire]

Jen, they aren't real sheep. People can change their minds. Some people may find the Christian life to difficult and may return to the old life. The Scriptures warn against it and give examples of it.

I don't believe it. Why? Because the Christian life always was too difficult and can't be done unless one is already saved. That's why the road is narrow and only those who believe in Christ for their complete salvation are saved. The road is narrow for one other reason. Christ is the stone that people stumble over. People can't seem to just trust Him. They can't believe that's all it takes. They think there has got to be some effort on their part.
Not only that a Christian is a new creation. Is it so hard to believe that the new man will never walk away?
People can believe what they want to, but I choose to believe that Christ can save to the UTMOST and that He means it when He says He will complete it.