OSAS, Ex-Christians will receive Greater Damnation?

[stupes]

I don't believe it. Why? Because the Christian life always was too difficult and can't be done unless one is already saved. That's why the road is narrow and only those who believe in Christ for their complete salvation are saved. The road is narrow for one other reason. Christ is the stone that people stumble over. People can't seem to just trust Him. They can't believe that's all it takes. They think there has got to be some effort on their part.
Not only that a Christian is a new creation. Is it so hard to believe that the new man will never walk away?
People can believe what they want to, but I choose to believe that Christ can save to the UTMOST and that He means it when He says He will complete it.

When does someone enter into salvation? When they believe in Jesus and trust Him?

[blessedmommyuv3]

Jen, they aren't real sheep. People can change their minds. Some people may find the Christian life to difficult and may return to the old life. The Scriptures warn against it and give examples of it.

Thank you for explaining.
I didn't want to respond without understanding for certain what you meant.

I just don't know how we can change our nature. I believe that God must regenerate and rebirth us, and without His supernatural acting upon our hearts, we will remain depraved and dead in our sins. Just as we cannot will our own human births, we cannot will our rebirth unto salvation.
And just as a sheep is created by its maker (God) to be a sheep, and a goat is created to be a goat (Matt 28), I believe we are His vessels created for His purpose in election.

Romans 9
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

In Christ,
Jen

[tt1106]

If you agree then how do hold to your claim. If salvation has nothing to do with us, then why aren't all men saved? You said,



John said,

John 1:6-9 ( KJV )
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

If nothing is up to us then all men would be saved because Christ lights (gives understanding) to all men that through Him (Christ) all men might believe.

And The point about the sheep is this, Christ goes after the sheep, but those who reject Him are no longer sheep.

All men aren't saved because God chooses not to.
Jesus lights every man. His light is bright. Think of the sun, there is light, even in the shadows. Jesus light shines on every man. Every man benefits from free grace, not all men benefit from saving Grace. The knowledge of God is in all of us, but still not all of us will be saved.

As far as the sheep. When did wandering sheep become wandering Goats?
How does Jesus decide who to go after?
If they are in his fold and they leave it, he gets them.
He knows which ones to get, because they are in his fold. They are in his fold, not because they decided to wander in or because he went and got them and stuck them in. They are in his fold, because that was the fold he started with, those are HIS sheep. He knows his sheep, because they have been his sheep all along.

[stupes]

All men aren't saved because God chooses not to.
Jesus lights every man. His light is bright. Think of the sun, there is light, even in the shadows. Jesus light shines on every man. Every man benefits from free grace, not all men benefit from saving Grace. The knowledge of God is in all of us, but still not all of us will be saved.

As far as the sheep. When did wandering sheep become wandering Goats?
How does Jesus decide who to go after?
If they are in his fold and they leave it, he gets them.
He knows which ones to get, because they are in his fold. They are in his fold, not because they decided to wander in or because he went and got them and stuck them in. They are in his fold, because that was the fold he started with, those are HIS sheep. He knows his sheep, because they have been his sheep all along.

That's a nice teaching. But Paul says in Romans 11 that you, a branch on the tree of life, can be cut off. A branch who is currently in Christ's life - can be cut off. Jesus does not give any teaching about keeping salvation concerning His statement of sheep - men go round and round about it. But Paul gives us a direct teaching that we can be cut off.

[stupes]

Romans 9
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

In Christ,
Jen

Yes - we are saved by Him alone, we have been chosen by God - but why? Paul tells us in Romans 4:
[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is why God can say that He would have every man be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth - but not all do - in fact not many do. The only way be elected is to believe - righteousness is accounted unto us. If we stop believing - we are no longer among the elect. This is why Paul goes on to say in Romans 11 that we can be cut off.

[Slug1]

For your answer to be correct it must agree with both passages. Gods word never contradicts itself.

Hey Roger... Romans 11 does support John 15:1-8 concerning being cut off.

In Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

[stupes]

Hey Roger... Romans 11 does support John 15:1-8 concerning being cut off.

In Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Agreed. And Romans 11 has no ambiguity - Paul is very direct in giving the reverential warning.

[goykodesh]

I will consider that - but Paul is talking to Christians. And the word of God was the OT for them at that time. Plus Paul had already taught them for a year and a half personally so they were Christians - in Greece.

I'm not sure that congregation would understand what that label meant, but yes, in context you are correct. Perhaps a sect of Judaism; it doesn't matter - God moved through them and did awesome (for us) works through them. Praise the Most High!

[Slug1]

Agreed. And Romans 11 has no ambiguity - Paul is very direct in giving the reverential warning.

Agreed.

To be "in His goodness" (Romans 11:v22) means on the vine, as a branch. Naturally or grafted... either can be cut off. If you "continue" from verse 22? Continue what, if your not on the vine as a branch?? Continue cause you are on the vine, how... because of a person's belief and acceptance of Jesus as their Savior and based on Romans 11 and John 15... can be cut off.

[goykodesh]

I still want to know why many believers today don't drop dead like Ananias did. It seems to me at least those TV preachers who sell "holy water" for an old lady's life savings would be equally treated, but I don't recall any of them dropping dead suddenly. Does anyone have any insight to this? Or was it just something confined to that 'moment in time,' IOW the church being so young it needed to remain pure? Argh.....I don't like to speculate.

[fuzzi]

I still want to know why many believers today don't drop dead like Ananias did. It seems to me at least those TV preachers who sell "holy water" for an old lady's life savings would be equally treated, but I don't recall any of them dropping dead suddenly. Does anyone have any insight to this? Or was it just something confined to that 'moment in time,' IOW the church being so young it needed to remain pure? Argh.....I don't like to speculate.

Maybe those people who sell 'holy water" aren't believers at all...

...true believers will be chastised if and when they err, because they are children, and a father chastises his children.

Those who aren't chastised are probably not God's children.

[Slug1]

Maybe those people who sell 'holy water" aren't believers at all...

...true believers will be chastised if and when they err, because they are children, and a father chastises his children.

Those who aren't chastised are probably not God's children.

Good point! So the question now is... who was the target of the chastment of Ananias and his wife? Them or the rest of the church they attended?

If it was them... ummm, there dead, what can they now learn from what happened to them?

If it's the church... they have plenty to learn from the example of what will happen if you do what they did.

As for today... eveyday the Lord is allowing His Spirit to manifest but many churches refuse to allow the Holy Spirit freedom. If the Lord was to kill someone, it would just be another statistic of a death in the church these days.

Sad...

[notuptome]

Hey Roger... Romans 11 does support John 15:1-8 concerning being cut off.

In Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

The whole of scripture is against what you have postulated. Paul is not suggesting that believers can be or will be cut off from Christ.

Paul was teaching that Israel was the natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief. Christ came to His own things the Jews and they rejected Him as their Messiah. Because of this the blessing promised first to the Jew has passed to the gentiles. If the gentiles do not receive Gods goodness, His Son, they too will be cut off.

Jesus is the Good Shepherd and He will not allow any harm to come to His sheep. Jesus Christ is eternally faithful to do what He has promised. When we are not faithful Christ remains faithful. No where in scripture can you find God betraying the saints.

Consider 1 Cor 5:1-5 We see here a believer in open rebellion to God. Yet Paul does not say he should be cut off and denied the goodness of God but rather that he should be delivered to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[notuptome]

Good point! So the question now is... who was the target of the chastment of Ananias and his wife? Them or the rest of the church they attended?

If it was them... ummm, there dead, what can they now learn from what happened to them?

If it's the church... they have plenty to learn from the example of what will happen if you do what they did.

As for today... eveyday the Lord is allowing His Spirit to manifest but many churches refuse to allow the Holy Spirit freedom. If the Lord was to kill someone, it would just be another statistic of a death in the church these days.

Sad...

Jude deals with this quite directly. vs 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. vs 8 says In like manner also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion and speak evil of dignities.

The Holy Spirit does not indwell dirty vessels. Christ hath no concorde with Belial.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[stupes]

The whole of scripture is against what you have postulated. Paul is not suggesting that believers can be or will be cut off from Christ.

Paul was teaching that Israel was the natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief. Christ came to His own things the Jews and they rejected Him as their Messiah. Because of this the blessing promised first to the Jew has passed to the gentiles. If the gentiles do not receive Gods goodness, His Son, they too will be cut off.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger,

With all due respect. Paul does not say that. You are changing his words. He explicitly says that YOU (to the Christains in Rome) are an active branch that is currently partaking of the life of Christ. And if you don't continue in His goodness you will be cut off. "Continue" - not "come into" - and they are a branch currently - not maybe sometime in the future - they have already been grafted in to the Holy root.

[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

You can't cut something out that was never there to begin with.