OSAS, Ex-Christians will receive Greater Damnation?

[stupes]

If you have truly believed, then please; how is it possible to unbelieve?

I can only speak for myself on this.

I was raised in a born-again, Holy Ghost baptism believing, Christian home. I had a strong child like belief from the time I was 4. And to this day I feel I have to guard this with everything I have. The things I know He has shown me by faith - I have to work to hang on to them - and believe that He is my daily provider - not the world - not my employer - I have to fight to keep the cares of this world out of my daily life. I do not let my guard down. I think unbelief is like a cancer - let a little in - and it corrupts.

Also - I have to work to not believe my intellect.

Maybe I am weak - but that's how it is for me.

[webhead]

Also - I have to work to not believe my intellect.

I am the opposite.

My intellect strengthens my faith.

I have found far more intellectual evidences to support Christ and the scriptures then I have found to slander Christ and the scriptures.

[webhead]

Ummm, OK. I guess when Jesus told us to spread the Gospel, He only meant to Jews throughout the whole world?

The eleven thought so at first, because it's all they did. They despised the notion of gentiles being their brothers in Christ, but they came around reluctantly before their ministries were finished.

And what does this have to do with Christ teaching Jews only anyway? Do you disagree that Christ only taught his own people? Where in the gospels did Christ go to foreign lands during his earthly ministry?

I'm not saying that we can't use Christ's teachings in our Christian walks as gentile Christians in the 21st century, but Christ never taught that gentiles replaced Israel and it's people. Christ was a hard core Levitical law abiding, temple worship and sacrifices Jew, and he preached and taught about the eternal kingdom of God being in Jerusalem, not Rome, Tibet, and certainly not in the USA.

[kay-gee]

But lets remember that the book of Hebrews was written to Hebrews. You have to take that into consideration.

And that matters how?

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Well we've always been under the assumption that those who have tasted applies to Christians. But why can't that just as easily be applied to the Jews/Hebrews. They saw all of God's works and miracles, pre Jesus, and were privy to His blessings. But at the point that Jesus comes they reject him. Not all of them obviously, but especially when you look at the Pharisees. They professed to know God and do His work yet they couldn't recognize Jesus as God when He showed them all His wonderful works. Miracles, teachings and His daily living. Yes in spite of all these things they saw, they purposely turned their backs on Him and rejected him, over and over and over and over, to the point where Jesus tells them that at that point they are sinning the unpardonable sin.

So understanding that the audience of the epistle were Hebrews and not Christians do you not see why there could be the whole debate of OSAS and NOSAS?

HUH? The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish CHRISTIANS. (Heb 3:1)

all the best...

[My heart's Desire]

Was reading the Bible this morning and came upon this as I read John 6:

He who eats this bread will live forever.”

I read this a few times and I can't help but see how Jesus keeps saying words that mean that the action must be continued. Examples are underlined: eat, drink, eats, drinks, feeds, eats.

The words that Jesus uses are not: ate, drank, ate, drank, fed, ate.

So I understand that a person must continue to do all this to abide in Him and He in them... v56.

So, what happens to a person who was eating and drinking but then stops?

This is where the OSAS never made any sense to me cause OSAS means that all I have to do eat once, drink once. Now that I have ate and drank, I don't need to anymore and my salvation is still secure.

Yet when I read this scripture, plus all the other scripture that has been brought out... by stopping my eating and drink, I'm not abiding any longer.

A person ate, they drank, they once abided but don't any longer... OSAS, to my understanding says they still have everlasting life... I just don't get it when I read the BIble and the eating and drinking must continue to remain in Christ.

Appears to me that if eating of the bread of life makes one live forever then only one bite would do it, don't you think?

Just the opposite is if you take a teaspoon of pure poison the result is the same even if you had the chance to take a teaspoon of it every day of your life.

(I know, not a good alternative situation, but really, if one never partakes of the bread of life isn't the result the same? You don't live forever?)

I'm not very biology minded but if you partake even once doesn't what you partook of become a part of you?

Don't forget what the bread is? The Bread of life is His body that was broken for you, the cup is the blood shed. He told us take the bread and the cup in remembrance of Him. A Memorial. He didn't say keep eating and drinking to be saved each time, did He?

[My heart's Desire]

That appears to be a contradiction to me. I'm sure those people who folks think can walk away and no longer be saved somehow knew at the beginning that they would walk away? Is it not possible that at one time they had the same confidence in Christ that you and I have? None of us know tomorrow. How can you be sure in the future you will not walk away and be lost? People are either secure in Christ or they are not. Which is it?

My goof up. The top line is from Fuzzi I think. The bottom line was my response...

sorry bout that! the top line is mine but I thought you said what I was replying to but it was Fuzzi who said it.
(It was this post I replied to 267 and I thought I was replying to you)

[Slug1]

Since this thread began, one of my prayers to God was for understanding of why a person would even be capable of walking away. How could a person accept Jesus, be filled by the Holy Spirit... even do a first "work" of faith by being baptized in water and then, later... walk away?

I just don't see how a person could.

So, today He answers me through a devotional. Now, devotionals and me aren't a regular thing. I receive one daily in email called Prime Time With God and I was handed a devotional book about 18 months ago. From this book I've read about 7 months worth of the devotionals. Took me that 7 months to realize that prayer and the Bible is where I need to be and mornings where I'm short on time, prayer and the Bible is not replaced by a devotional. Which is what I was doing, so I know this is why I was led to stop and only use the Bible and prayer.

However, I did have an overwhelming desire to read the devotional for this day, in that book. It's called: Experiencing God - Day by Day from Henry T. Blackaby and Richard Blackaby.

So this is the devotional for today and now I know why I was prompted so strongly, by the Holy Spirit to read it. The scripture for the devotional caught my eye since it's been the 1st line of my signature for months now. Also, this is the 1st time reading this devotional as I only read up to the 1st week in October last year and then set the book down. Until this morning, so it's been a little over a year since reading it.

Quenching the Spirit

Do not quench the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

We cannot prevent God from accomplishing His work in the world around us but we can quench His Spirit in our lives. God has given us the freedom to withstand the Holy Spirit's activity in our lives. When we ignore, disobey, or reject what the Spirit is telling us, we quench His activity in us. The prophet Isaiah described the result: "Hearing you will hear and not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with so that I should heal them" (Isa 6:9, Matt 13:14-15).

When you sin, the Holy Spirit will convict you of your need for repentance. If you habitually ignore Him and do not repent, your heart will grow hardened to God's Word. If the Spirit speaks to you about God's will for you, and if you refuse to take action, a time will come when the Spirit's voice will be muted in your life. If you continually reject the Spirit's promptings, a day will come when you no longer hear a word from God. If you repeatedly stifle God's Word to you so that you are no longer sensitive to His voice, He will not give you a fresh word. Be wary of resisting the voice of the Spirit in your life. You may not always be comfortable with what the Spirit is saying to you, but His words will guide you to abundant life.

[notuptome]

[QUOTE=Butch5;2280797]

As has been stated many, many times, it is not a matter of Christ's faithfulness, He is faithful. It is about man's faithfulness. Let me ask you a question, God chose Israel to be His people yet they were unfaithful to Him so He divorced them. Why would He treat anyone else any differently?

It is the faith of Christ that saves us. Man cannot be faithful. Every man will sin after salvation. Every aspect necessary for salvation has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ on our behalf. Nothing was left undone. Christ is perfect eternal God. Gods plan of redemption is perfect and eternal.

Christ said O Jerusalem, Jerusalem thou that killest the prophets. How oft would I have gathered thee as a hen gathereth her chicks and ye would not. God has not abandoned Israel. Did God abandon the OT prophets and saints? Heb ch 11 records those who were faithful despite apostascy in the nations. Have you considered the apostascy in the main line denominations and rome? Look at the Ivy League schools. They were founded by men of God to promote higher education and now they are little more than cesspools of apostascy. They are openly hostile to the word of God.

Jesus has said the he that cometh to Him he will in no wise cast out. Jesus completely saves. Every last jot and title has been fulfilled there is nothing to add and nothing can be taken away.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[notuptome]

Since this thread began, one of my prayers to God was for understanding of why a person would even be capable of walking away. How could a person accept Jesus, be filled by the Holy Spirit... even do a first "work" of faith by being baptized in water and then, later... walk away?

I just don't see how a person could.

So, today He answers me through a devotional. Now, devotionals and me aren't a regular thing. I receive one daily in email called Prime Time With God and I was handed a devotional book about 18 months ago. From this book I've read about 7 months worth of the devotionals. Took me that 7 months to realize that prayer and the Bible is where I need to be and mornings where I'm short on time, prayer and the Bible is not replaced by a devotional. Which is what I was doing, so I know this is why I was led to stop and only use the Bible and prayer.

However, I did have an overwhelming desire to read the devotional for this day, in that book. It's called: Experiencing God - Day by Day from Henry T. Blackaby and Richard Blackaby.

So this is the devotional for today and now I know why I was prompted so strongly, by the Holy Spirit to read it. The scripture for the devotional caught my eye since it's been the 1st line of my signature for months now. Also, this is the 1st time reading this devotional as I only read up to the 1st week in October last year and then set the book down. Until this morning, so it's been a little over a year since reading it.

Quenching the Spirit

Do not quench the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

We cannot prevent God from accomplishing His work in the world around us but we can quench His Spirit in our lives. God has given us the freedom to withstand the Holy Spirit's activity in our lives. When we ignore, disobey, or reject what the Spirit is telling us, we quench His activity in us. The prophet Isaiah described the result: "Hearing you will hear and not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with so that I should heal them" (Isa 6:9, Matt 13:14-15).

When you sin, the Holy Spirit will convict you of your need for repentance. If you habitually ignore Him and do not repent, your heart will grow hardened to God's Word. If the Spirit speaks to you about God's will for you, and if you refuse to take action, a time will come when the Spirit's voice will be muted in your life. If you continually reject the Spirit's promptings, a day will come when you no longer hear a word from God. If you repeatedly stifle God's Word to you so that you are no longer sensitive to His voice, He will not give you a fresh word. Be wary of resisting the voice of the Spirit in your life. You may not always be comfortable with what the Spirit is saying to you, but His words will guide you to abundant life.

Quenching the Holy Spirit affects our fellowship with the Lord not our salvation. If you agrue with your brother are you no longer siblings or just at odds with each other and in need of reconciliation? Brothers may go to their graves never speaking to one another but they remain brothers. There is always shame and reproach over such stubborness but brothers are always brothers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Slug1]

Quenching the Holy Spirit affects our fellowship with the Lord not our salvation. If you agrue with your brother are you no longer siblings or just at odds with each other and in need of reconciliation? Brothers may go to their graves never speaking to one another but they remain brothers. There is always shame and reproach over such stubborness but brothers are always brothers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The point is how can a person walk away from Jesus? Thus causing God the Father to cut them off the vine. It's because they allow their heart to harden as they ignore the Holy Spirit. If they wither, they can still return later but if they die their physical death before returning and allowing God to take them and graf them back on... they are put on the fire... Jesus' words of what happens to them, not mine.

Ya know this brings up the scripture about the demon returning to a clean and orderly house. What made the house orderly? It was the Holy Spirit cleaning them while the Holy Spirit dwelled in them after accepting Christ. But the demon finds the house "empty". No more Holy Spirit to keep the house clean and orderly anymore... then the party begins inside of them as more demons begin to oppress. (Matt 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26)

It'll be worse then it was before we read in the scripture.

Allot of warnings in the Bible to "Hold Fast"... well, if there's no need to Hold Fast, then why all these warnings?

I look at the scripture that started this thread, specifically Heb 10:29. In the Bible, Jesus Himself tells us that those who blasphemy Him, will be forgiven, (Matt 12:32). Why? If those that are in Christ and fall away and then speak against Jesus will be punished based on Heb 10:29!!

I read through to Heb 10:31 and wonder why would it be fearful to fall into the hands of the Living God if... OSAS?

Heb 10:26 states "after we have received the knowledge of the truth"... well, some may say this is nothing more then me talking to a person on the street, witnessing to them, speaking the Gospel to them, even testifying but they say, "yeah right!" and walk away... some say they have received the knowledge of the truth. Did they? No, they didn't cause they didn't accept, to receive the truth means to embrace it, accept it and once accepted, Jesus is their Savior as they accept.

So this leads to what punishment from Heb 10:29?

What punishment? Well, cut off and toss in a fire is a clear indication, (John 15:2)

[Vhayes]

Is man strong enough to break the seal the Holy Spirit has placed on the believer?

Read Hebrews 10 all the way through. The author is telling Hebrew believers that if they continue in their sin they will be like those under the Law (which the audience was MOST familiar with) who were stoned. They physically died - they didn't stop being Hebrews.

[Slug1]

I know, I was even told in another post that the Gospel is for the Jews... so does God have two standards of salvation? One for Jews and one for non-Jews?

I don't think so... the Bible is the living Word of God and when the Holy Spirit ministers to us all an answer or ministers comfort to us through reading the Bible and we're led specifically to a verse that some in this thread clearly state "Jews only"... since we're all not Jews, this scripture is discarded? It means nothing? We can rip all the scripture out of our Bibles that deals with the Jews because it means nothing for our well being or instruction on the need to "Hold Fast"???

To answer that question... No, obviously but when the Father removes a person off the vine... and we read all the other scripture and see a house now empty... I'd say the seal is gone.

[Vhayes]

I know, I was even told in another post that the Gospel is for the Jews... so does God have two standards of salvation? One for Jews and one for non-Jews?

I don't think so... the Bible is the living Word of God and when the Holy Spirit ministers to us all an answer or ministers comfort to us through reading the Bible and we're led specifically to a verse that some in this thread clearly state "Jews only"... since we're all not Jews, this scripture is discarded? It means nothing? We can rip all the scripture out of our Bibles that deals with the Jews because it means nothing for our well being or instruction on the need to "Hold Fast"???

To answer that question... No, obviously but when the Father removes a person off the vine... and we read all the other scripture and see a house now empty... I'd say the seal is gone.

In truth, Slug, the gospel was for the Jew FIRST (Romans 1:16). Jesus' earthly ministry was to the Jew.
Matthew 15
22 - And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
23 - But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
24 - But He answered and said, "I was sent only to (T)the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 - But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
26 - And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
27 - But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
28 - Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

[notuptome]

The point is how can a person walk away from Jesus? Thus causing God the Father to cut them off the vine. It's because they allow their heart to harden as they ignore the Holy Spirit. If they wither, they can still return later but if they die their physical death before returning and allowing God to take them and graf them back on... they are put on the fire... Jesus' words of what happens to them, not mine.

No where in scripture does it teach that believers are cast into the lake of fire. A believers works go through the fire to be tried but not the believer. We are not under the condemnation of God if we have received Christ as our Saviour.

Ya know this brings up the scripture about the demon returning to a clean and orderly house. What made the house orderly? It was the Holy Spirit cleaning them while the Holy Spirit dwelled in them after accepting Christ. But the demon finds the house "empty". No more Holy Spirit to keep the house clean and orderly anymore... then the party begins inside of them as more demons begin to oppress. (Matt 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26)

It'll be worse then it was before we read in the scripture.

this is self righteousness not the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to us when we receive Christ as our Saviour.

Allot of warnings in the Bible to "Hold Fast"... well, if there's no need to Hold Fast, then why all these warnings?

Apostascy will come in the last days. So strong will be the delusion that even the elect would be deceived if God does not intervene.

I look at the scripture that started this thread, specifically Heb 10:29. In the Bible, Jesus Himself tells us that those who blasphemy Him, will be forgiven, (Matt 12:32). Why? If those that are in Christ and fall away and then speak against Jesus will be punished based on Heb 10:29!!

I read through to Heb 10:31 and wonder why would it be fearful to fall into the hands of the Living God if... OSAS?

Do you not know this is speaking of those who establish their own righteousness by their works? They consider the blood of Christ to be insufficient to save and to keep those who are saved.

Heb 10:26 states "after we have received the knowledge of the truth"... well, some may say this is nothing more then me talking to a person on the street, witnessing to them, speaking the Gospel to them, even testifying but they say, "yeah right!" and walk away... some say they have received the knowledge of the truth. Did they? No, they didn't cause they didn't accept, to receive the truth means to embrace it, accept it and once accepted, Jesus is their Savior as they accept.

False argument. If they heard the word and rejected it the blame is on them. Who is there on the face of the earth who does not know the name of Jesus? Do they all believe? Demons know and tremble yet they are not saved.

So this leads to what punishment from Heb 10:29?

What punishment? Well, cut off and toss in a fire is a clear indication, (John 15:2)

Beilevers are never subject to Gods judgment upon sin. Christ is our righteousness. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ because He became sin for us. How many times must Christ suffer for your sins? Will you recrucify Him and put Him to open shame? Heb 6:4-6 There is so much here in Hebrews of the eternal nature of Christs sacrifice and priesthood and yet you persist in your struggle against it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger