OSAS, Ex-Christians will receive Greater Damnation?

[Slug1]

Could you explain how that says someone cannot reject Christ after coming to Him?

I believe there is a difference between "cannot" and "will not."

If we're discussing that John 15:2 then it don't matter if they cannot or will not... it's due to a lack of produce that God the Father boots them off the vine and into the fire.

[Slug1]

Yeah, too bad we can't ask them. All we can do is speculate and provide opinions. Too bad 'sin' in English covers three levels of transgression in Hebrew. I would characterize Adam and Eve's actions as "pasha" - rebellion. Maybe that would be an aid to the speculation part of it.

His point is we don't have to ask them... based solely on their actions, they DID what you say can't be done.

[goykodesh]

His point is we don't have to ask them... based solely on their actions, they DID what you say can't be done.

I didn't say it can't be done. I said it was difficult for me to understand.

[TrophyofGrace]

There is no such thing as an ex-Christain. Whom Christ has saved is forever saved. Any work done by Christ is perfect and eternal. To claim anything less is to demean the character of Christ.

Eph 1:13 states that we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. God has placed His seal upon those who have received Christ. Suppose you that you can break the seal God has sealed? We are sealed with an eternal seal that no man can unseal.

Eph 4:30 tells us to greive not the Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Your premise suggests that a Jew can become un-Jewish and ex-Jew if you like. One who is born a Jew is always a Jew. He may become reprobate or apostate but he is always a Jew.

You cannot come to Christ by your will and you cannot separate yourself from Christ by your own will. You may become apostate but a Christian is forever a Christian.

There is only one who whould dare to suppose that Christ is not faithful to perform all that He has promised. Eph 4:17-24 Gentiles walk in the vanity of their mind but we are to be renewed in the spirit of our mind if we are in Christ. Put off the corrupt and deceitiful lusts and put on the new man created in holiness and righteousness in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Jesus Himself said: Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We do not come to Christ by our own will.

Jesus also said: Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

We cannot separate ourselves from Him, either. If no man can pluck them out of His hand, then what makes me think I can pluck myself out?

I was saved when, through the Holy Spirit's conviction, I believed Jesus when He said I must be born-again (Joh 3:3). He told me to trust Him to save me, and He told me to trust Him to keep me. If I can depend on Him for one, I can depend on Him for the other.

But just because I'm saved doesn't mean I'm in fellowship with Him; many things can damage that, not the least of which is my sin. Therein lies the difference between the believer's standing and state.

[Slug1]

I didn't say it can't be done. I said it was difficult for me to understand.

Believe me, I can't understand it either

But it's done and scripture supports it.

[tt1106]

Faith comes after belief. Faith along with grace is part of the gift of salvation... after we have "chosen" to accept Christ. First one must believe, then accept and then they are sealed by the Holy Spirit (in Christ) and faith begins.

I naturally disagree.

[Slug1]

I naturally disagree.

I know dude

[BroRog]

If we're discussing that John 15:2 then it don't matter of they cannot or will not... it's due to a lack of produce that God the Father boots them off the vine and into the fire.

The passage from John 15 was brought up, as you know, in the context of our discussion of OSAS. While I agree with your statement concerning the parable, that Jesus has described what will happen to someone who walks away from him, the parable doesn't address the question of whether someone who has been saved will walk away from him.

The question on the table is whether John 10:27-29 supports OSAS and the issue at the moment is whether or not someone can walk away from Jesus.

Xel'Naga: Where does Scripture teach that we cannot reject Jesus after claiming Him?

As far as I know, there is no scripture that specifically says "we cannot reject Jesus after claiming him." In fact, I haven't yet found a scripture that even implies that we "cannot walk away." Walking away is always a theoretical possibility.

However, the scriptures teach that if we are one of his, we will not walk away. Thus, I pointed out the distinction between "cannot" and "will not." Three different Apostles point out the fact that the testing of our faith is a good thing because the testing of our faith will ultimately give credence to our hope. A faith that has been tested and survived the test is a certified faith. And a certified faith is one that will endure to the end.

[Slug1]

The passage from John 15 was brought up, as you know, in the context of our discussion of OSAS. While I agree with your statement concerning the parable, that Jesus has described what will happen to someone who walks away from him, the parable doesn't address the question of whether someone who has been saved will walk away from him.

OK... as for this scripture a person don't have to walk away, all they have to do is "do nothing" while in Christ and they're cut off the vine and are removed.

[thepenitent]

Could you explain how that says someone cannot reject Christ after coming to Him?

I could but I'm not going to now. This issue has been hashed out ad nausem on many different threads, some of which you have participated in. I just don't feel like another arminian vs. calvinist debate at this time. If you do a search you can review the arguments.

[goykodesh]

Believe me, I can't understand it either

But it's done and scripture supports it.

Yep.

I guess my problem is that the way I was made, I sort have black and white vision, gray areas are really abstract for me and I have difficulty with the abstract. Don't read me wrong, rebellion is definately over the line, but all the gray things - that's what confuses me.

For instance, if some of what God wants me to do or not do doesn't really makes no sense to me, perhaps I will disobey it because the action doesn't appear to have consequences, and none of my friends know anyway. Then when I begin to suffer from the consequences of the sin, I get all upset and rebellion creeps in.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to push my shortcomings on you.

By the way, I do not accept the Calvanist teachings. It's outside of God's Word.

[TrophyofGrace]

OK but as for this scripture a person don't have to walk away, all they have to do is nothing while in Christ and they're booted.

That doesn't sound like the Jesus I serve....

Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Y'know, I don't speak to, or see my earthly father all that often but I'm no less his daughter, and he's no less my father than when I was living under his roof.

We're still family, but our fellowship is shaky. Even if we never spoke again, we'd still be family. He could write me out of his will and we'd still be family!

Our standing remains father/daughter.
Our state is uncommunicative.

[Slug1]

That doesn't sound like the Jesus I serve....

Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Y'know, I don't speak to, or see my earthly father all that often but I'm no less his daughter, and he's no less my father than when I was living under his roof.

We're still family, but our fellowship is shaky. Even if we never spoke again, we'd still be family.

Our standing remains father/daughter.
Our state is uncommunicative.

Read the scripture (John 15:2). It's not Jesus doing the removing, but God the Father removing them.

[TrophyofGrace]

Read the scripture (John 15:2). It's not Jesus doing the removing, but God the Father removing them.

LOL! I was just going to edit my post and replace "Jesus" with "God."

It doesn't sound like the God I serve either, and that actually adds credence to my father/daughter illustration.

[goykodesh]

That doesn't sound like the Jesus I serve....

Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Y'know, I don't speak to, or see my earthly father all that often but I'm no less his daughter, and he's no less my father than when I was living under his roof.

We're still family, but our fellowship is shaky. Even if we never spoke again, we'd still be family. He could write me out of his will and we'd still be family!

Our standing remains father/daughter.
Our state is uncommunicative.

Dear TrophyofGrace,

Please be very careful with your analogies.

Jesus said this to HIS OWN COUNTRYMEN, the blood of Abraham, to whom God gave the promise:

(Luk 13:25) When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'
(Luk 13:26) then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
(Luk 13:27) But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'