OSAS, Ex-Christians will receive Greater Damnation?

[Partaker of Christ]

It's too bad we can't ask Adam and Eve. I understand perfectly well why someone would walk away from God, even if they "really had" a relationship with Him -- it's known as sin.



I'd have to look into it, however yes I probably would disagree with you on closer inspection. On a cursory reading, I would say this verse would be taken in with the understanding that what's in question is someone who not only claims Christ, but is actively following in Christ -- that is someone that won't be snatched away. However, someone who claims Christ but doesn't follow as they should, well, they can certainly be snatched away.

But, you disagree with that as it is.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

[Butch5]

Isn't He speaking of those who hear His voice? And if one wanders away, He will go find it?

Yes, He is. You have used the key word, "wanders". A person who rejects Christ has not "wandered", they have rejected. They have made a deliberate choice. A lost sheep does not set out with the intent to get lost, it wanders off and then realizes that it is lost. That is why Christ goes to find it. The one who rejects is not lost in the sense of not knowing where they are. They are right where they have chosen to be.

[Partaker of Christ]

Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Who began the good work in you?

[Butch5]

Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Who began the good work in you?

One word, Context.

[Vhayes]

Yes, He is. You have used the key word, "wanders". A person who rejects Christ has not "wandered", they have rejected. They have made a deliberate choice. A lost sheep does not set out with the intent to get lost, it wanders off and then realizes that it is lost. That is why Christ goes to find it. The one who rejects is not lost in the sense of not knowing where they are. They are right where they have chosen to be.

I know we'll disagree on this, Butch and that's ok. To me, you give the sheep way too much credit and the shepherd nowhere near enough.

Christ doesn't go find the sheep because it realizes it is lost - He goes and finds the sheep because it's His.

Hope that makes a bit of sense -
V

[Partaker of Christ]

One word, Context.

If you think it is out of contex, then why not show us?

Who began a good work in you?

[Slug1]

Verse 2, the branch is in Christ, but not having fruit, and verse 6, the branch is not in Christ. I am not a bright bulb, but that is quite simple if you will accept it.

Read all the verses, John 15:1-8

The meaning of the "branch" is established as those "in Me"(Jesus Christ).

The key is v2... there are branches in Christ that God the Father removes due to their lack of production of fruit. They are Christians, through and through, otherwise they would not be called "in Me" by Jesus. Jesus, then explains that those that don't produce fruit "He takes away"... this is God the Father taking a Christian who is "in His Son" away...

No way that OSAS is supported.

The branch in v6 is just that... a branch. In v1-5 the branches are established and they are branches on the vine v5. Some abide, some don't v5-6. Those that do, are the ones being pruned and those that don't abide, they are cast out (still as a branch from the vine) and are withered. In the end, they are burned up.

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

[blessedmommyuv3]

I know we'll disagree on this, Butch and that's ok. To me, you give the sheep way too much credit and the shepherd nowhere near enough.

Christ doesn't go find the sheep because it realizes it is lost - He goes and finds the sheep because it's His.

Hope that makes a bit of sense -
V

Amen.
Beautifully put, V.

In Christ,
Jen

[Redeemed by Grace]

Reading through from the beginning, this topic always gathers much interest, and see once again that it 'stands still at 50 MPH...'

Couple thoughts as to the scriptural references being used, such as Hebrews and 1 Corinthians and John, well maybe the whole bible...

Are there not 3 types of Faith? I submit for consideration that the bible calls out three.

1) No faith
2) Faith of knowledge
3) Faith of the heart and knowledge or God breathed faith.

Those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, are those for who God has given tender hearts of salvation, and because of salvation, desire to walk in obedience of the word. Those who say they believe, yet walk still in the world, believe only with their own wisdom and fall, because either Jesus knowing the hearts of all men, does not commit Himself to them, or they fall away because their heart is of self. And those of no faith, believe not.

For His glory...

RbG

[tt1106]

Using that logic would you agree all men are saved?

John 1:7-9 ( KJV )
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He gives assistance to every man.

No, I would not. Scripture doesn’t say that all men will be saved.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. (NAS)
Yes all men, through him, preaching the gospel, testifying to Christ, might believe. But they won’t. Christ was the true Light. He lights every man. He is the word made flesh. Through him everything was created. Everything good comes from him. Every man, every person, is a recipient of his goodness, whether saved or not.
I also disagree about the the earlier comment about the sheep. Lost sheep lay down where they are and starve to death. They don't wander back, they have to be got. The Shepherd needs to seek them out and bring them back into the fold. The sheep don't do it on their own. If not for the Shepherd, carrying the Rod and staff, they would perish either by exposure or by ravenous wolves.
blessings,
tt1106

[Partaker of Christ]

Read all the verses, John 15:1-8

The meaning of the "branch" is established as those "in Me"(Jesus Christ).

The key is v2... there are branches in Christ that God the Father removes due to their lack of production of fruit. They are Christians, through and through, otherwise they would not be called "in Me" by Jesus. Jesus, then explains that those that don't produce fruit "He takes away"... this is God the Father taking a Christian who is "in His Son" away...

No way that OSAS is supported.

The branch in v6 is just that... a branch. In v1-5 the branches are established and they are branches on the vine v5. Some abide, some don't v5-6. Those that do, are the ones being pruned and those that don't abide, they are cast out (still as a branch from the vine) and are withered. In the end, they are burned up.

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will[b] ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

So, you go with replacement theology?

I will repost this passage.

Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

1) how can they (the natural branches) be broken off, if they were not first attached?

2) why were they broken off?

3) from what were they broken off, that we may be grafted in?

[stupes]

1) how can they (the natural branches) be broken off, if they were not first attached?

This is Israel (not all Israel is Israel, but in general this is the nation)

2) why were they broken off?

Unbelief

3) from what were they broken off, that we may be grafted in?

God's life, His kingdom, eternal life. And Paul weaves in the warning to not be highminded or else we too shall be broken off. For if He broke off the natural branch - how much easier would He brake the unnatural.

[Partaker of Christ]

This is Israel (not all Israel is Israel, but in general this is the nation)



Unbelief



God's life, His kingdom, eternal life. And Paul weaves in the warning to not be highminded or else we too shall be broken off. For if He broke off the natural branch - how much easier would He brake the unnatural.

Who is the Life?

[stupes]

Who is the Life?

Jesus is Life..........

[Slug1]

So, you go with replacement theology?

You will have to help me out with this. I'm a very simple person, so explain to me what replacement theology is?

With all your Roman 11 scripture you asked 3 question:

1) how can they (the natural branches) be broken off, if they were not first attached?

2) why were they broken off?

3) from what were they broken off, that we may be grafted in?

Do you want these 3 questions answered based on Romans 11 or John 15:1-8. Cause the answers will be different. Based on John 15:1-8

1. all the branches were attached or they would not be referred to as... "in Me" by Jesus Christ. That v2 sets the standard as Jesus is talking about those on the vine as a branch.

2. Because they were unproductive and God the Father removed them from the vine. God the Father didn't prune them, He cut them off, again v2.

3. As for the scripture of John 15:1-8... I will have to assume that the moment a branch who was once on the vine and is now withering (due to being cut off)... humbles themselves, surrenders to the will of God and repents. If they never do this, in the end they are the branches (because they were once on the vine prior to being cut off) gathered and tossed on the fire.