OSAS, Ex-Christians will receive Greater Damnation?

[VerticalReality]

I will say that based on the majority of scriptures NOSAS has the most support. However, one chapter of scripture that I still haven't gotten a good grasp of yet is 1 Corinthians 3. Works will be burned but the man will be saved?

[thepenitent]

The book of Hebrews provides the most blatantly anti-OSAS Scripture in, well, Scripture.

Hebrews 6.4-6: For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The author outright says that these people "have tasted the heavenly gift" and they "have shared in the Holy Spirit". He's not talking about non-believers who went to a church service and saw believers enjoying their salvation. He says that these people have taken part in the Christian faith. These people are Christians.

He says that they "have fallen away". How can they "fall away" from Christ if they weren't raised up by him to begin with?

He says that "it is impossible ... to restore them again to repentance". How can they be restored "again" to repentance if they weren't restored to repentance once before?

OSAS has no leg to stand on in relation to Hebrews 6.4-6. There is simply no way to claim the author was speaking about people who were "never really saved" to begin with, because the author describes these people as if they were saved and then left the faith. You can't leave the faith if you weren't "really" a part of it to begin with.

No one can snatch a believer away from Christ against their will. But a believer can walk away from Christ of their own will.

This passage says a lot more than seemingly denying OSAS. It says if you ever leave the faith at all you can never come back. Do you believe that is the biblical truth. That anyone who has a crises of faith is lost forever? If someone drops away for a month, lets say, then they are lost no matter if the later come back to belief and faith?

[VerticalReality]

This passage says a lot more than seemingly denying OSAS. It says if you ever leave the faith at all you can never come back. Do you believe that is the biblical truth. That anyone who has a crises of faith is lost forever? If someone drops away for a month, lets say, then they are lost no matter if the later come back to belief and faith?

I think there is a difference between having a crisis of faith and renouncing the faith. Additionally, there is also a HUGE difference between those who profess faith in Jesus Christ and those who have tasted the heavenly gift.

[Bladers]

Bladers,
I'm surprised that we actually agree on something.

LOL, Awesome! I believe we will find other common grounds that we can agree on as times goes along.

[Stormfreak1]

Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

In the larger context, Paul is addressing division in the Church of Corinth where groups of people are arguing that one minister of the gospel is better than another one. Paul is basically instructing the people to reserve judgment until God's evaluation is openly displayed before everyone.

Vs 10-11 are talking about ministers of the Gospel who are attempting to build the kingdom of God (implying that they love Jesus and want to see His kingdom come). It's not talking about those who are in danger of falling away from the faith- who are intentional, habitual, unrepentant sin.

The quality of their ministry is being judged- not their salvation as they love Jesus and repented.

[VerticalReality]

Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

In the larger context, Paul is addressing division in the Church of Corinth where groups of people are arguing that one minister of the gospel is better than another one. Paul is basically instructing the people to reserve judgment until God's evaluation is openly displayed before everyone.

Vs 10-11 are talking about ministers of the Gospel who are attempting to build the kingdom of God (implying that they love Jesus and want to see His kingdom come). It's not talking about those who are in danger of falling away from the faith- who are intentional, habitual, unrepentant sin.

The quality of their ministry is being judged- not their salvation as they love Jesus and repented.

This seems like the best explanation to me as well.

[thepenitent]

I think there is a difference between having a crisis of faith and renouncing the faith. Additionally, there is also a HUGE difference between those who profess faith in Jesus Christ and those who have tasted the heavenly gift.

It doesn't say "renouncing the faith' it says fall away. And it doesn't put a time limit. Under the strict reading which is being imposed on the verse here, that would include falling away for even a day. Further, once you say tasting does not necessarily mean professing faith, then the verse no longer conflicts with OSAS. I've never heard anyone in commentary or from the pulpit give a persuasive meaning for this passage. Thus, it is not a legitimate proof text for anything.

[kay-gee]

So, do you mean that scripture needs strong human commentary in order to be the Truth?

all the best...

[VerticalReality]

It doesn't say "renouncing the faith' it says fall away. And it doesn't put a time limit. Under the strict reading which is being imposed on the verse here, that would include falling away for even a day. Further, once you say tasting does not necessarily mean professing faith, then the verse no longer conflicts with OSAS. I've never heard anyone in commentary or from the pulpit give a persuasive meaning for this passage. Thus, it is not a legitimate proof text for anything.

In the Greek the term means to turn aside. Therefore, the person in question is making a choice to turn from the faith. This is not an uncertain position or a crisis of faith where a person is having some sort of doubt. The people in Hebrews 6 are making a decision to turn from the faith. Specifically in context I believe the people in question are making a decision to turn aside from faith in Christ to return to the works of the law. This passage in specifically in reference to Jews who have become partakers of the Holy Spirit that have renounced their faith in the Lord Jesus for their salvation and returned to the works of the law to be justified.

[ThyWordIsTruth]

I will say that based on the majority of scriptures NOSAS has the most support. However, one chapter of scripture that I still haven't gotten a good grasp of yet is 1 Corinthians 3. Works will be burned but the man will be saved?

It's actually very simple, let's look at it and I'll try to exegise it for you.

These few verses are Paul's warning and exhortation to the leaders at Corinth (he's being tactful if you will) to be very careful in how they led and taught the church. Probably some of them were teaching deviant doctrines or even doctrines not centred upon Christ, and Paul is gently warning them to be careful of what they're doing.

We can also note Paul's tactfulness in this because he tries to be respectful to the elders there because they still have to lead the laity after this letter had been read out in public in the church. If he had blasted them outright, it'll just make their jobs more difficult.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
- Paul is saying first that he is able to build anything at all because of the grace of God.
- Paul builds like a skilled master builder. If you can imagine a skilled master builder in action, he does not build haphazardly and do whatever he pleases.
- He follows well laid down rules when building. He builds carefully, meticulously and very skillfully. He follows a plan and builds systematically.
- Paul uses this analogy to describe how he built the Corinthian church, very very carefully and meticulously in the doctrines of God and Christ.
- Someone else is now building upon what Paul has built, because now Paul is not present in Corinth, continuing on in his work of building up the church at Corinth wth teaching the things of God.
- Paul then exhorts whoever is involved in spiritually building the church (i.e. the church leadership) to be very careful how he builds upon the foundations Paul has laid.

1Co 3:11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
- Paul makes this clear, there can be no other foundation in the church other than Jesus Christ, every doctrine, teaching and the church must be built upon Christ himself.

1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
- what are the gold, silver, precious stones which will endure testing in the Day of Judgement? They are the things which endure, that are good and solid and built solidly on the person of Christ and of sound doctrine.
- what are the wood, hay and straw which will be completely burned up? They are frivilous things, not built upon Christ. Wrong doctrines and spending of much time and effort perpetrating them and teaching them and frivilous things done in the name of Christ but do not lead people to knowing and worshipping the person of Christ, all these will be burned up and count for absolutely nothing in eternity.
- God will test the kind of work each one has done in the Day of Judgement. Did they build with gold, silver and precious stones? Or wood, hay and straw, which are essentially worthless things?

1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
- if the person built well on the foundation of Jesus Christ, upon his doctrines, upon his person, teaching and preaching faithfully from his teachings and his words, teaching sound doctrine, it will survive and the person recieves a reward.

1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
- If the person is saved in the first place, but his work is frivilous and not based upon the person of Christ (he runs here and there doing things which he *thinks* pleases Christ, perhaps engaging the world in dialogue, peace plans, etc. etc. things which are not built on Christ himself) all his works will be burned up and count for nothing.
- he will suffer loss, because his works will all be for naught, he'll get no reward for them
- he himself might be saved, but only barely. He will be saved as though one going through fire, he is burned, he suffered loss, and he escaped only by the skin of his teeth.

[thepenitent]

So, do you mean that scripture needs strong human commentary in order to be the Truth?

all the best...

Not at all. But are you saying there is somene who understands every single meaning and nuance of Biblical Truth of every single verse of the Bible? Do you? I don't and I've never met anyone who does.

[thepenitent]

In the Greek the term means to turn aside. Therefore, the person in question is making a choice to turn from the faith. This is not an uncertain position or a crisis of faith where a person is having some sort of doubt. The people in Hebrews 6 are making a decision to turn from the faith. Specifically in context I believe the people in question are making a decision to turn aside from faith in Christ to return to the works of the law. This passage in specifically in reference to Jews who have become partakers of the Holy Spirit that have renounced their faith in the Lord Jesus for their salvation and returned to the works of the law to be justified.

"Turn aside" is a pretty slippery term. If you reject 10% of the Gospel have you turned aside? 30%? What about someone who would keep the parts of Christian faith they like but stick with the parts of Judiasm they liked? Where does the line fall between a "crises" and a "turning away". What is the status of (in Elijah's words) one who is "of two opinions"? And who says they are authoritative enough to draw that line? But in any event, to say this verse is a proof text against OSAS is to also say no one can ever return to the faith. This would contradict much of Jesus' teaching on forgiveness.

[VerticalReality]

"Turn aside" is a pretty slippery term. If you reject 10% of the Gospel have you turned aside? 30%? What about someone who would keep the parts of Christian faith they like but stick with the parts of Judiasm they liked? Where does the line fall between a "crises" and a "turning away". What is the status of (in Elijah's words) one who is "of two opinions"? And who says they are authoritative enough to draw that line? But in any event, to say this verse is a proof text against OSAS is to also say no one can ever return to the faith. This would contradict much of Jesus' teaching on forgiveness.

If you reject any part of the gospel you have rejected ALL of it and you are believing a different Jesus. The gospel is Jesus Christ, Him crucified for our sin, and then resurrected on the third day. If anyone rejects that they are not a Christian. There is no percentage. If I believe Jesus died but I don't believe He was raised . . . I am not a Christian. You either believe it 100% or you don't believe it at all.

[thepenitent]

If you reject any part of the gospel you have rejected ALL of it and you are believing a different Jesus. The gospel is Jesus Christ, Him crucified for our sin, and then resurrected on the third day. If anyone rejects that they are not a Christian. There is no percentage. If I believe Jesus died but I don't believe He was raised . . . I am not a Christian. You either believe it 100% or you don't believe it at all.

I agree. We are in accord here. But I think this truth is one of the things that makes Hebrews 6 such a difficult passage to reconcile with the rest of the NT.

[Partaker of Christ]

One of the most relevant scriptures that shows that OSAS isn't possible is this:

John 15: 1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

In v2, Jesus is speaking about those in "Him". That those who don't bear fruit... "He", or God the Father, takes away.

In v6, Jesus tells us what happens to those who were once in Him but didn't abide... they're tossed in the fire and burned.

So, those "in Me" as we read in v2 are those who have put their faith in Jesus otherwise they wouldn't be "in Him"... but for their lack of obedience, get cut away (removed by God the Father)... this I would assume is a Christian falling away from faith in Jesus and never seeking repentance.

I don't believe verse 2 and verse 6 are the same.

Verse 2 says any branch in me (so he must still be abiding in Christ) but he does not bare fruit.

Verse 6 is anyone who does not abide in me (so he is not in Christ)