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Thread: "all things are lawfull" ... or are they?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    I wasn't saying that Jesus destroyed the law. The law is still very much in place . . .

    What I was saying is that the law is not for the Christian. Jesus has removed the law from the life of the Christian. The law still serves a purpose in the lives of those who do not believe. However, those are exactly the people that the law was intended for . . . those who do not believe (i.e. sinners).

    Consider the following . . .

    Romans 4:13-15
    For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

    The bolded section above is what Jesus has done in the life of the Christian. He has removed the law so that there is no transgression. That is how He removed our sins and took them away (refer to a bunch of passages in Hebrews). Jesus didn't just cover our sin for a time as the sacrifice of the Old Covenant did . . . He has totally removed our sin and cleansed us of sin . . .

    How? Where there is no law . . . there is no transgression.
    You say the law is and the law is not. Jesus said the law still is and not one jot or title shall pass away. Christ's fulfillment of the law satisfied the law and we no longer are under the condemnation the penalty of the law.

    This does not negate the eternal sacrifice of Christs blood. For we still sin even after we are redeemed but we have an advocate who is interceeding for us before the Father. He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. We still transgress but we have forgivness through Christ.

    Jesus said that He did not come into the world to condemn the world but that through Him the world might be saved. John 3:17 The condemnation is that Light is come into the world but men loved darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19 They knew their deeds were evil because of the law.

    A Christian knows of his transgression because of the law. Law in this sense is the bible not just the law of Moses.

    Gods grace cancels the power of the law to bring us into condemnation. The law is still there it is simply powerless before the Lord Jesus.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by goykodesh View Post
    Then what you are saying that since I am a Christian no matter what I do, it's not transgression, since there is no longer a law to define my transgression as sin.

    Yet, somehow I was never bound by this law before my faith because I had no idea it even existed, nor of all the elements contained within it. People say the law was for Israel, but somehow they are free from it. How can someone be free from that which they never served? I only knew of God's way after I came to faith - not before. My only tutor was my parents and society in general.

    Consider - If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, why did He condemn Israel for not keeping the law, but today condemns Christians for keeping the law? Does that sound schizophrenic just to me? Christ just forgives us and expects nothing from us but to believe in Him, go on with our natural lives and He'll take care of the rest? I am not speaking of salvation, which is unearned. I am speaking of response to God's salvation. How do I serve Him? As the King of the Universe, doesn't He teach me how? He's not going to just throw me out there on my own, I do know that. I depend on His wisdom for my decisions and my actions. Totally on Him.

    I just don't gete it. Or did I miss what is being stated here?

    I'm going to humbly bow out of this thread. Discussions like these are usually unprofitable and wind up being judgemental. That's not my purpose.
    What I'm saying is that there is no law bringing judgment or condemnation. All judgment has been given to Him, and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The reason this is so is because there is no law for the Christian. That doesn't mean that a Christian can't do anything wrong or that He won't chasten His kids if they do something wrong. What it means is that there is nothing to condemn the Christian and separate them from Him.
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  3. #33
    goykodesh Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    What I'm saying is that there is no law bringing judgment or condemnation. All judgment has been given to Him, and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The reason this is so is because there is no law for the Christian. That doesn't mean that a Christian can't do anything wrong or that He won't chasten His kids if they do something wrong. What it means is that there is nothing to condemn the Christian and separate them from Him.
    Every day I fall to my face and thank Him for that pardon. It's a value I'm sure I don't even realize.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    You say the law is and the law is not. Jesus said the law still is and not one jot or title shall pass away. Christ's fulfillment of the law satisfied the law and we no longer are under the condemnation the penalty of the law.
    But again, you are not understanding the law. You cannot have a law without condemnation. A murderer cannot expect to make it out of a courtroom a free man unless there is nothing there to convict him. If there is a law he/she will be found guilty, and they will pay a penalty. The law has to be satisfied. You will not find one passage of scripture that says we are no longer under "the condemnation of the law." Why? Because condemnation and law are synonomous. That is why it is called the ministry of death. You cannot have law without death.

    This does not negate the eternal sacrifice of Christs blood. For we still sin even after we are redeemed but we have an advocate who is interceeding for us before the Father. He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. We still transgress but we have forgivness through Christ.
    But there is no condemnation . . .

    And the reason there is no condemnation is because the Christian is not under the law . . . not "condemnation of the law." That is what it means when the word says He has taken it out of the way. Those requirements are no longer there for the believer.

    Jesus said that He did not come into the world to condemn the world but that through Him the world might be saved. John 3:17 The condemnation is that Light is come into the world but men loved darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19 They knew their deeds were evil because of the law.
    And the only way to remove that condemnation is to also take away the handwriting of requirements . . . that ministry of death.

    A Christian knows of his transgression because of the law. Law in this sense is the bible not just the law of Moses.
    That statement isn't anywhere in scripture.

    Gods grace cancels the power of the law to bring us into condemnation. The law is still there it is simply powerless before the Lord Jesus.
    If a law is there how can it be powerless? Jesus didn't cancel the "power of the law" . . . He cancelled the power of sin.

    Do you know why the law was given?
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    But again, you are not understanding the law. You cannot have a law without condemnation. A murderer cannot expect to make it out of a courtroom a free man unless there is nothing there to convict him. If there is a law he/she will be found guilty, and they will pay a penalty. The law has to be satisfied. You will not find one passage of scripture that says we are no longer under "the condemnation of the law." Why? Because condemnation and law are synonomous. That is why it is called the ministry of death. You cannot have law without death.
    What did Paul say in Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.
    Christ satisfied the law on our behalf.
    is there how can it be powerless? Jesus didn't cancel the "power of the law" . . . He cancelled the power of sin.

    Do you know why the law was given?
    What power has the law save to bring knowledge of sin. Knowledge of sin brings death. The law can no longer bring death to the believer therefore it has no power over the believer.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    What did Paul say in Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.
    Christ satisfied the law on our behalf.
    That's exactly what I've been saying. He has taken it out of the way.

    What power has the law save to bring knowledge of sin. Knowledge of sin brings death. The law can no longer bring death to the believer therefore it has no power over the believer.
    The reason death cannot be brought to the believer is because they have been cleansed of their sin and there is no longer a law there to convict them. Christ has taken the law out of the way. The ministry of death is no longer in effect for the Christian.
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  7. #37
    goykodesh Guest
    We appear to be separated by a common language.

  8. #38
    goykodesh Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalReality View Post
    The reason death cannot be brought to the believer is because they have been cleansed of their sin and there is no longer a law there to convict them. Christ has taken the law out of the way. The ministry of death is no longer in effect for the Christian.
    That means I can obey Him and His Words without condemnation. Halleluyah.

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