cure-real
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: What does this parable mean? Mathew 9

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    258

    What does this parable mean? Mathew 9

    I always found this of interest, to me it means to change ones self within, like a rebirth of being true to God.

    Jesus Questioned About Fasting

    14Then John's disciples came and asked him, "How is it that we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?"

    15Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast. 16"No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. 17Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    In the slave pits of manmade Christianity, setting the captives free.
    Posts
    16,014
    I do not think it is a parable.

    I understand this passage to demonstrate that what Jesus offered was so radically different from what the Pharisees or even the Disciples of John offered as to be completely and totally unfitted to being added to their religious traditions piecemeal.

    With Jesus, it is all or nothing. He explodes all known religious paradigms.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    under the pain of the wish
    Posts
    11,371
    Blog Entries
    9
    I also notice that Jesus associates fasting with mourning.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    In the battle field
    Posts
    11,530
    Fasting is the key word, when we fast, we replace whatever we fast with the word (scriptures, daily bread ), Jesus is the word, therefore the disciples didn't need fast because they were in the presence of the word (Jesus) they were being hand fed.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    suburb of judea
    Posts
    1,226
    The day and time is Atonement Day in Israel.

    Mourning and fasting was a common practice for this day (sackcloth and ashes..torn garments and etc). (there were exceptions/loopholes to following the fast...kinda like the second Passover meal exception)

    John's disciple's followed the Law as well as the Pharisees (John is now in prison and not personally there to lead them)

    Jesus is saying that the whole purpose of Atonement day celebrations are coming...He is the Atonement Day when He dies upon the Cross. That is the day that they will mourn and fast. And indeed they did...as we still mourn but celebrate his ressurection all at the same time.

    Kinda strange the way we do it...but no matter. We understand things a little differently today than they did then.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gentile View Post
    I always found this of interest, to me it means to change ones self within, like a rebirth of being true to God.

    Jesus Questioned About Fasting

    14Then John's disciples came and asked him, "How is it that we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?"

    15Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast. 16"No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. 17Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."
    He is making two entirely different points. The point Jesus is making about fasting is that He is with them, there is no need for them to Fast.
    We could also set background to that statement by dealing with the hypocrisy of the fasting of the Paarisees.

    The patch and the wineskins both deal with contrasting of old and new covenants.

  7. #7

    Some useful data for seeking to understand this passage

    In order to best understand these words of Jesus -- whether one regards them as a parable or not -- it will (I expect all will agree) -- be best to read them in context (knowing, for instance, what passage comes before, and what passage after the one we are interested in), and it will be best to look at how this is narrated (reported) in all the Gospel sources. It comes up in Matthew, in Mark, and in Luke.

    I have not yet had time to think through the parable (or, non-parable) Gentile asks about in context, and in its treatment in the three Synoptic Gospels, where it is found; so in this post I simply give the text as it is in Matthew, in Mark, and in Luke.

    The translation is the AV (KJV) simply because that it the easiest one for me to quote using the resources currently available to me on line.

    In Matthew's Gospel

    Matt 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
    11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
    12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
    13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    14 Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
    15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
    16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
    17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. ...

    In Mark's Gospel

    Mark 2:13 And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.
    14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
    15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
    16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
    17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    18 And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?
    19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
    20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
    21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
    22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

    23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
    24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
    25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
    26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
    27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
    28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

    In Luke's Gospel

    Luke 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
    28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.
    29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.
    30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
    31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
    32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    33 And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?
    34 And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
    35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
    36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
    37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
    38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
    39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

    Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
    2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
    3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
    4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
    5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
    6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
    7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
    8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
    9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
    10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
    11 And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus.

  8. #8
    We fast to focus our minds and thoughts on God and God alone.

    What purpose is it to fast when God is in your midst, walking and talking with you?

    An analogy would be to pine for and miss your spouse and write love letters to her when she's staying in the same house as you (instead of in a faraway land). It would make sense when your wife had to travel away.

    Same things for Jesus and fasting.
    Tit 3:2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    under the pain of the wish
    Posts
    11,371
    Blog Entries
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by ThyWordIsTruth View Post
    We fast to focus our minds and thoughts on God and God alone.

    What purpose is it to fast when God is in your midst, walking and talking with you?

    An analogy would be to pine for and miss your spouse and write love letters to her when she's staying in the same house as you (instead of in a faraway land). It would make sense when your wife had to travel away.

    Same things for Jesus and fasting.
    Good point.

    Also, I suspect there is a subtext behind the Pharisees' comments and Jesus would like to challenge the Pharisees to examine it.

    The Pharisees, and perhaps some of us living today, look at religion as a series of rituals God requires, simply because God wants it, and not that it has to make sense. According to this view of religion, fasting, prayer, burning incense, church attendance, and tithing are on the same par with jumping up and down on one foot while patting the head and rubbing the belly. Why do we do such things? God wants them done. Would we do them otherwise? Not really.

    The Pharisees had this list of things God wants done. Each day and each week the Pharisee will go down the list, perform his duty and check that item off the list. Today is the day I must pay a tithe. Did I tithe? Yes? Check. Today is the day I must fast. Did I fast? Yes? Check. This is the prescribed hour to pray. Did I pray? Yes? Check. Check. Check. Check. Check. Check. I'm doing what God requires. I'm a holy person.

    So the Pharisees look at the disciples and ask, "why aren't your disciples going down the check list? Are they holy or not?" Jesus wants the Pharisee to learn the reasons behind these activities. God isn't asking them to fast simply because God enjoys starving people.

    Why is fasting associated with mourning? I think fasting is associated with mourning because actual, true, deep mourning causes us to naturally lose our appetite. Grief is often accompanied by crying, lack of sleep, loss of appetite, inattention to hygiene, and disheveled appearance. Being in mourning naturally leads to fasting.

    With regard to the disheveled appearance of those who grieve, ever notice that OT folks in mourning rip their garments, and wear sackcloth and ashes?

    As with other physical manifestations of emotion, we can induce the emotion by artificially performing the physical manifestation first. If we intend to purposely reach a feeling of grief, it's possible to put ourselves in that emotional state by ripping our clothing, going without food, listening to certain songs that illicit tears, remembering our failures, or the loss of our family and friends.

    And this goes back to your point, why would someone want to mourn when they have Jesus sitting there? Why put on all the trappings of mourning such as fasting, sackcloth, and tears, when we are happy and right with God?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Where are we at in this parable?
    By cwb in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: Nov 6th 2008, 10:55 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •