Answer to why there was so much violence in the OT.

***ikester7579*** · Dec 2nd 2009, 06:57 AM

What was there so much violence in the OT? This is a question that many atheists like to ask a Christian. It bothered me that I could not answer it until I realized something.

People in the OT did not go to Heaven or Hell when they died as we do today. They did what was called: Slept with thy fathers.

1kings 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
1kings 11:21 And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country.
1kings 11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
1kings 14:20 And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.
1kings 14:31 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

What this means is that their soul stayed on earth with their bodies. This also means that there was no judgment for sin or righteousness after death as there is now. So punishment and judgement for sin was carried out while people were still alive on this earth. When Christ rose from the dead, the saints worthy to go up at that time rose up with their bodies and went into the Holy City.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice the word usage. It says: "Many" bodies of the saints which slept arose. Many does not equal all. So this resurrection was also a judgement leaving some still in their graves even unto this day. This is why this verse says this:

1thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If Christ came to give life, who are the "dead in Christ"? It's the saints that were not worthy to rise when Christ rose from the dead. So they are still in their graves and most rise first. Being the last to rise from the old covenant, but the first to rise in the new covenant. Fulfills scripture that says:

mt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

So the "dead in Christ" rising first has nothing to do with anyone from the NT. It the last people to rise from the OT. This is because all that die in the new covenant go to their destinations according to what they believed to wait for their judgment. So basically if a person committed a sin worthy of death, they were judged here on earth and the sentence was carried out. One instance was where King Saul refused to kill someone whom had shed innocent blood (babies and children) when God told him to, the prophet Samuel got mad and did it himself. Saul was cursed for disobeying. And later Him and his sons were killed in battle as foretold by the prophet Samuel.

***vinsight4u8*** · Dec 2nd 2009, 01:42 PM

No saints have put on eternal life yet. Those that came out of their graves after Jesus arose - had to go back.

1 Timonty 6
15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

and

Look over at John chapter 5 - as only Jesus got life in Himself.

26: For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

then
Look at what occurs when the two witnesses rise at the same hour as the earthquake (3rd woe).
This is when the resurrection of all of the just happens.
(7th trumpet)
the Spirit of life from God in themselves

***ikester7579*** · Dec 2nd 2009, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by vinsight4u8

No saints have put on eternal life yet. Those that came out of their graves after Jesus arose - had to go back.

1 Timonty 6
15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

and

Look over at John chapter 5 - as only Jesus got life in Himself.

26: For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

then
Look at what occurs when the two witnesses rise at the same hour as the earthquake (3rd woe).
This is when the resurrection of all of the just happens.
(7th trumpet)
the Spirit of life from God in themselves

If the ressurection allowed those who rose to die again, where is that recorded in the Bible? Also, it makes His ressurection not perfect if people rose and died because of it.

1cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

If the saints judge the world, they have to go before us.

rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

And if the saints that rose died again, then Hebrews 9:27 is not true.

**th1bill** · Dec 2nd 2009, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by ikester7579

If the ressurection allowed those who rose to die again, where is that recorded in the Bible? Also, it makes His ressurection not perfect if people rose and died because of it.

1cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

If the saints judge the world, they have to go before us.

rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

And if the saints that rose died again, then Hebrews 9:27 is not true.

... Worthy comments! There is a great deal of heretical teaching in those first two posts and I do ot say this to slander or to harm anyone. An errant teaching is heresy and is only guarded against by effective Bible study, girded in prayer and followed with meditation on the reading.
... The first rule of understanding the scriptures is to ever take any portin of it out of it's greatest context. When the CEO writes a letter to anyone he or she dictates that letter to the secretary and when it is finished they sign it. In similar fashion the Bible was inspired to be written by 40 or so writers by God. That means that the Bible, all of it, is of oe context.
... In the Old Testament times the saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah, Jesus, and we look back to Him. We know that to die is to be with Him in Heaven. And as already illustrated no saint, Old or New Testament will die more than once. Any Jewish believer, Christian or Jewish faith, can tell you that Paradise and Hell, not the Abyss, the Fiery Pit, are where the Believers and the non-believers are assigned to await the coming of the Messiah. When all those Old Testament Saints came out of the graves they went to Heaven and Paradise was closed and now only Hell is still there, awaiting the Final Judgment.

***ikester7579*** · Dec 3rd 2009, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by th1bill

... Worthy comments! There is a great deal of heretical teaching in those first two posts and I do ot say this to slander or to harm anyone. An errant teaching is heresy and is only guarded against by effective Bible study, girded in prayer and followed with meditation on the reading.
... The first rule of understanding the scriptures is to ever take any portin of it out of it's greatest context. When the CEO writes a letter to anyone he or she dictates that letter to the secretary and when it is finished they sign it. In similar fashion the Bible was inspired to be written by 40 or so writers by God. That means that the Bible, all of it, is of oe context.
... In the Old Testament times the saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah, Jesus, and we look back to Him. We know that to die is to be with Him in Heaven. And as already illustrated no saint, Old or New Testament will die more than once. Any Jewish believer, Christian or Jewish faith, can tell you that Paradise and Hell, not the Abyss, the Fiery Pit, are where the Believers and the non-believers are assigned to await the coming of the Messiah. When all those Old Testament Saints came out of the graves they went to Heaven and Paradise was closed and now only Hell is still there, awaiting the Final Judgment.

As a side note, this also tells who the 2 witnesses will be. The two men that did not die in the OT, but had their own personal rapture. Must die to fulfill scripture that every man must die once.

This make the OT resurrections a trinity. The 2 prophets of the OT (Enoch and Elijah). And the worthy saints of the OT.

gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
2kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

***vinsight4u8*** · Dec 3rd 2009, 02:28 PM

Rev. 11 shows us two people that will finish their testimony. Just as when olive trees and candlesticks type of pictures showed us that Zerubbabel (Zec. 4) would finish the job that he started.
He was the governor and was there when the foundation of the temple was laid - and would live to see it finished.

Okay - Rev. 11 - finish their testimony witnesses
Hebrews 11 shows that when Enoch was translated
>

5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

***vinsight4u8*** · Dec 3rd 2009, 02:31 PM

Some peoople like to say that Moses will be one of them - but Moses died - as did Aaron - and we are even told in the bible (a part by Jesus) that those that ate manna are dead.
Moses wasn't even allowed to go into the holy land as he had disobeyed God at the time when he was to speak to the rock, but smote it instead.

Deuteronomy

31:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation.

John 6

49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

***vinsight4u8*** · Dec 3rd 2009, 02:39 PM

Paul only tells us about two kinds of people that will be changed at the last trump.

dead
and those that remain (didn't die)

So Enoch has to get into the group of the dead before Jesus can rapture the church.

***vinsight4u8*** · Dec 3rd 2009, 02:45 PM

The grave - some of the saints graves were opened after Jesus arose, but only Jesus was given life in Himself - the never can die again type of llfe.

Look at what happens just before the two witnesses are to rise from the dead.
What do they get in themselves?
The angel is telling John prophecy at this point ---as to the third woe earthquake hour.
see Rev. 11

***vinsight4u8*** · Dec 3rd 2009, 02:47 PM

8:11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Romans

***vinsight4u8*** · Dec 3rd 2009, 02:54 PM

Several people in the bible died and came back to life, but it was not life in them from God - as in eternal life.

Look at John 5 - it shows that only Jesus was given life in Himself.

2 Timothy = Rev. 1, and others all show that Jesus has not yet given regular people eternal life.

Jesus will bring the sleeping saints with Him
we - shall all be changed - at the last trump

Only He hath put on immortaliity.

The regular people need this to gain eternal life.

Job 14:
12: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
14: If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15: Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands

rapture verse //Rev. 11 - third woe time (earthquake hour)
ch 6
8: For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting
Galatians

***Athanasius*** · Dec 3rd 2009, 04:44 PM

Or the phrase, 'slept with thy fathers,' is just a cultural idiom...
I don't see how this answers the question of violence in the Hebrew Scriptures, either.

**webhead** · Dec 3rd 2009, 09:43 PM

The world has always been a violent place since mankind first sinned.

And God's people, the Israelites, have had more enemies then all other nations combined have had over the last 5000 years.

Why would the history of the nation of Israel recorded in the Old Testament not be filled with violence, all other nations and people hated them for the most part? Wars and rumors of wars abounded.

The Bible is a very accurate history book, the most accurate ancient history book that has ever been found to be exact. If there is a more accurate ancient history book out there, mankind is yet to discover it.

***ikester7579*** · Dec 4th 2009, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Xel'Naga

Or the phrase, 'slept with thy fathers,' is just a cultural idiom...
I don't see how this answers the question of violence in the Hebrew Scriptures, either.

God commanded people to go and kill off others who were evil. Why did that stop, if you have a better explaination?

**webhead** · Dec 4th 2009, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by ikester7579

God commanded people to go and kill off others who were evil. Why did that stop, if you have a better explaination?

It hasn't stopped.

Hitler was killed(by his own hand after his defeat). Much of the Taliban has been killed off. It's still going on in the 21st century, evil men are killed off left and right.