Does This Prove We Should All Speak in Tongues?

[RedemptionAddict]

Ok I guess I am confused...you said in your opening post:



I gave you scriptures showing not every even has the gifts of tongues so how could they possibly pray in tongues even if they should? You said they can and should...but scriptures clearly shows not everyone can speak in tongues at all. I posted the scriptures where Paul explains we are all given different spiritual gifts..and that not everyone is given the gift of tongues but other gifts instead.

God bless

Like I said if you go back and read 1Cor 12 you see he tags the word 'kinds" when talking about tongues. This narrows it to only foreign, tribal languages. So I would agree that this type of manifestation is only for some. But in 1Cor 14 it's a different type of language. It's not a tribal or foreign because 'no man understands it' and it's used to speaking mysteries and intimatcies with God (see various translations of 1Cor 14;2). And this tongue Paul says He intends we all speak with

[RedemptionAddict]

Well my Texas lingo is somewhat rusty but to me the matter of tongues (unknown) and praying in tongues (unknown) is like the feller that is all hat and no cattle. He who is saying it may believe it but that don't make it so. Cattle don't do well when the graze only in afield of dreams.

Just one mans opinion. Proving we should all speak or pray in unknown tongues is impossible especially from the scriptures. Paul did say tongues would cease and prophecy would fail. I cannot perceive a need for praying in unknown tongues when God understands me when I pray in my native tongue.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

lol I still don't understand you . . . thou art a barbarian unto me.

[RedemptionAddict]

Sorry, I am not a dispensationalist. IMHO, God is steadfast, not wish-washy.

By the way, do you know of any written historical evidence of tongues as you describe it in Christianity before the 12th century AD?

No. Azusa changed alot of things.

[RedemptionAddict]

I really think that most of us could see this clearly if we put aside our bias and just ask "Does the Bible say it?". Just strip away all the commentaries and big words and just ask 'Does the Bible say it?'


That's what I did . . . Years ago as a boy in high school. Just opened my Bible and realized it was a real thing. And that God intends for me to do it (1Cor 14;5) and I went from there. And I have to say tongues has produced many supernatural, miraculous results in my life and those I know. For instance, my pastor was made aware and prayed in tongues for his daughter and she was able to escape someone who was trying to rape her. Also many many stories of car accidents being avoided. The time would fail me to tell of how useful it is to pray with your spirit.

[RedemptionAddict]

I have a question for those who study Greek.

I have been told that the word 'tongue" in 1Cor 14:2 is very obscure. Something about how this word had never appeared without the 's' and seems to indicate somekind of 'gutteral' sound. And when translators came across it they had never seen it before so they put the word 'unknown' in front of it

Can any Greek students enlighten me on this? Is that true? Is there somthing peculiar about this word in 1Cor 14;2?


Leaving for the night. Love you guys!

[goykodesh]

No. Azusa changed alot of things.

Azusa? Is that an acronym or something of another tongue?

[RedemptionAddict]

Azusa? Is that an acronym or something of another tongue?

lol

No no. Azusa Street Revival. The outpouring that happened in 1907 and spread throughout the world.

[Brother Mark]

I really think that most of us could see this clearly if we put aside our bias and just ask "Does the Bible say it?". Just strip away all the commentaries and big words and just ask 'Does the Bible say it?'

I believe in tongues. But I don't believe every one should speak in tongues. Scripture doesn't contain the word "should" when speaking of tongues as it does with prophesy.

Paul even went so far as to suggest that we should push prophesy over pushing tongues.

Finally, I do think there is a difference in having a motivating gift of prophesy and having a word of prophesy, but that's just my 2 cents. The chief priest wasn't a prophet, but he prophesied about Jesus death being better than the destruction of a nation. He didn't have the gift of prophesy but he prophesied. Same with the distinction of not all prophesy (have the gift) but all can and should prophesy (have a word).

Grace to you.

Mark

[Butch5]

I’ve been developing a study on the subject of praying in tongues and wanted to get some feedback from you guys. For me, the best way to see if a doctrine holds water is to expose it to a barrage of differing viewpoints and criticisms.
So my question to you is: Can you locate any biblical errors in the following points?

Objective:
Prove that every believer can and should pray
in tongues:
1. God tells all believers to pray in the Spirit (Eph 6:18, Jude 1:20). The only biblical description of “praying in the Spirit” is given in 1Cor 14:2 and 1Cor 14:14-16


2. God tells all believers to pray with “every kind of prayer”(Eph 6:18) And praying in tongues is a kind of prayer (1Cor 14;2 and 1Cor 14:14-16)

3. God inspired Paul to tell every Christian that His intent and purpose for them is to pray in tongues (1Cor 14:5)

Now let me preface this by saying I’m not sure if this discussion will be a success since I am usually only able to check the boards once a week (people get bored easily if you don’t respond quick enough).
Second, to just kind of give you an idea of where I’m coming from: I’m a big fan of Occam’s Razour. And I try to stay as close to the actual text of the Bible as possible. In other words, if you were to ask me what John 3:16 means I’m more likely to quote it back to you than to give a ten page discourse of ‘what it really means.’ To me, this is usually the safest route to take.

In 1 Cor. 14 Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for abusing the gift of tongues, he is not teaching them to pray that way. If you read the entire book you will see phrases of rebuke. Phrases such as, "I praise you not", "Ye are carnal", 'He that prays in an unknown tongue edifies himself'. If you read this book from the perspective that Paul is rebuking them many things become clear. Paul is not teaching Christians to pray in tongues.


1 Corinthians 14:2-5 ( KJV )
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Notice Paul keeps telling them it is better to prophesy, the reason is that prophesying edifies the church not the individual. His argument is that there are divisions in the church because the Corinthians were edifying themselves. Notice Paul says He who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to God, why? Because no one can understand him. However, it is a moot point because Paul also told the Corinthians that tongues would cease. The gift of tongues was given as a sign of judgment against the unbelieving Jews, primarily against their leadership. Notice Paul's words.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 ( KJV )
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

(side-note: notice Paul said prophesying not tongues is for believers).

The judgment that was prophesied is from Isaiah,


Isaiah 28:1-29 ( KJV )
Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.


Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

This is the judgment that tongues was warning of, and it came to pass. Jerusalem was destroyed. Since the judgment has passed there would no longer be a need for the warning, thus Paul's statement tongues shall cease.

[Quickened]

Butch nailed a great point. Paul was addressing the issue because it was a problem with the Corinthian Church. They were all looking at this outward sign as something significant. Paul early in chapter 14 expresses that to prophecy is better. Why? People will be edified, encouraged and consoled. (v3). He goes on to say that the person speaking in this other "tongue" is building himself up whereas the man who is prophesying is building up thr church through this edification, encouragement, etc.

In verse 9 Paulk asks an important question. In the same way, unless you use your tongue for intelligible speech how will what is spoken be known? How can you build up the church of God?

It really reminds me of todays church. Like the Corinthains they are zealously (v12) putting too much stock in something that winds up to be no benefit.

Paul goes on to say something very powerful in verse 19. That he would rather speak five words with his understanding then 10,000 words in another language.

If this was so important why is Paul discouraging their behavior and admonishing them to act differently.

Time and again when i read these threads people who view "tongues" as glossolalia are usually the ones who miss the point that Paul is driving home.

It'd really be something if people put as much time and effort into a gift that is often overlooked that Paul speaks about in Chapter 13.

[Brother Mark]

It really reminds me of todays church. Like the Corinthains they are zealously (v12) putting too much stock in something that winds up to be no benefit.

I agree with almost your entire post. Except for this small portion above. Paul didn't say it was of no benefit. He said it benefited the church if there was an interpreter. He also said it benefited the one speaking in tongues even if there was no interpreter.

It'd really be something if people put as much time and effort into a gift that is often overlooked that Paul speaks about in Chapter 13.

A hearty AMEN! And, I would add the gift of prophecy to that as well for Paul desired that all should prophesy (i.e. speak words of encouragement).

[HisLeast]

Why stop at "should"? Why not just assume its essential?

[BroRog]

I know exactly how I can pray in the Spirit for all saints even when I don't know what I'm saying . . . I do it all the time.

Call things by their right name. If you don't know what you are saying, you are mumbling, not praying.

[webhead]

No. Azusa changed alot of things.

Have you studied the history of Charles Parham and William J. Seymour? The Azusa street boys?

No offense, but these guys were Neo-Montanist nuts. I wouldn't practice anything they started.


In the western world Pentecostalism generally traces its roots back to the teachings and experiences of Edward Irving, a Presbyterian Minister in Scotland in the early 1800's. After studying the Book of Acts he began to teach that what the early church experienced was to be normative for the church in his day. He was excommunicated from the Presbyterian Church over his heretical Christological doctrines. Like Irving, John Alexander Dowie was a minister from the same area. He was originally a Congregational Pastor, who subsequently left his denomination and formed his own called the "Christian Catholic Church." In 1901 he began to build a city of righteousness outside of Chicago which he named Zion. He believed that he was the first restored apostle to The Church, and later came to believe he was the prophet Elijah, the restorer, sent to pave the way for the return of Christ which he too believed was immanent. He taught that the Church would be fully restored to apostolic authority and power. His beliefs coupled with those of Edward Irving formed the initial platform for the rapid spread of Neo-Montanist beliefs which were to soon be launched globally.

William Seymour had been taught about receiving the baptism with the Holy Ghost, (i.e. the gift of speaking in other tongues) by Charles Fox Parham in Kansas. Parham had a small Bible school in which he taught the need for a restoration of New Testament Christianity based on the model shown in the book of Acts. n 1901, a woman, names Agnes Ozman was the first recorded tongue-talking Pentecostal in American Church history, and William Seymour received the baptism at some point while at Bible school under Parham. eymour went to Los Angeles and began to preach about the Holy Spirit baptism in a barn/warehouse on Azusa.

These 5 well trained Christian theologians were alive and active when the "Azusa Revival" began and they were well informed and had firsthand knowledge.
1. G. Campbell Morgan "the last vomit of Satan."
2. R.A. Torrey "emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite."
3. H. A. Ironside"disgusting. . .delusions and insanities." ... "pandemonium's where exhibitions worthy of a madhouse or a collection of howling dervishes," were causing a "heavy toll of lunacy and infidelity."
4. W.B. Godbey "Satan's preachers, jugglers, necromancers, enchanters, magicians, and all sorts or mendicants,"
5. Clarence Larkin "But the conduct of those possessed, in which they fall to the ground and writhe in contortions, causing disarrangement's of the clothing and disgraceful scenes, is more a characteristic of demon possession, than a work of the Holy Spirit. From what has been said we see that we are living in "Perilous Times," and that all about us are "Seducing Spirits," and that they will become more active as the Dispensation draws to its close, and that we must exert the greatest care lest we be led astray."

Who were the Montanists? Montanus, who recently had converted to Christianity around 156 AD, falls into trance in the Phrygian village of Ardabau. Afterwards, he claims to have heard the voice of the Holy Spirit, receiving a divine message, prophecies. He begins speaking out his message, and is joined by two young women, Prisca and Maximilla, who also gets contact with the Holy Spirit. The message that the Montanists claimed to bring forth was not always in accordance with the message brought by the majority church. Their prophecies were by outsiders understood as additions to the original message of Christ not clarifications of the original message. Moreover, the prophecies were described as being possessions by God. Within 25 years of its emergence, the Montanists were labeled heretics by the majority church. Montanus is said by Jerome to have been previously a priest of Cybele; but this is perhaps a later invention intended to connect his ectasies with the dervish-like behavior of the priests and devotees of the "great goddess".

[roaring tiger]

I’ve been developing a study on the subject of praying in tongues and wanted to get some feedback from you guys. For me, the best way to see if a doctrine holds water is to expose it to a barrage of differing viewpoints and criticisms.
So my question to you is: Can you locate any biblical errors in the following points?

Objective:
Prove that every believer can and should pray
in tongues:
1. God tells all believers to pray in the Spirit (Eph 6:18, Jude 1:20). The only biblical description of “praying in the Spirit” is given in 1Cor 14:2 and 1Cor 14:14-16


2. God tells all believers to pray with “every kind of prayer”(Eph 6:18) And praying in tongues is a kind of prayer (1Cor 14;2 and 1Cor 14:14-16)

3. God inspired Paul to tell every Christian that His intent and purpose for them is to pray in tongues (1Cor 14:5)

Now let me preface this by saying I’m not sure if this discussion will be a success since I am usually only able to check the boards once a week (people get bored easily if you don’t respond quick enough).
Second, to just kind of give you an idea of where I’m coming from: I’m a big fan of Occam’s Razour. And I try to stay as close to the actual text of the Bible as possible. In other words, if you were to ask me what John 3:16 means I’m more likely to quote it back to you than to give a ten page discourse of ‘what it really means.’ To me, this is usually the safest route to take.

friend it is right to pray in any way you like but the verses you quote in 1 Cor.14: 2, 14-16 teaches as to speak in tongue,in understanding and in spirit. I would like to share to to you how I pray to the Lord.Psalm 56: 4 $ 10.In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust ;I will not fear what flesh can do unto me. 10.In God I will praise his word;in the Lord will I praise his word.1 Cor 14: 15 What is it then?I will pray with the spirit,and I will pray with the understanding also:I will sing with the spirit,and Iwill sing with the unerstanding also.
Now the problem is what is the God's word that you will speak to praise the Lord? What song will you sing in spirit and understanding that will
seem good to Lord?Try to learn it in Zef. 3:9 & Rev. 14 : 3.
Thank you and God bless.