Purgatory. Fact or myth???

[The Mighty Sword]

I have often heard difference opinions regarding " purgatory " does this place exist or is it just another myth or if it does exist is there any scripture indicating it in fact does exist???


If this should be in World religions please adjust accordingly, Thank you,

[MLC]

A myth, there is no scripture supporting such an idea.

[Amos_with_goats]

We make an error when we try to impose time on what comes after death.

I believe the notion of purgatory is such an error.

[The Mighty Sword]

If there is no scripture to prove it's existence and it is in error, how is it justified in religions???

[gringo300]

It appears that the Roman Catholic concept of sin is different that the Biblical concept of sin.

I'm glad that they ACKNOWLEDGE that such a thing as sin EXISTS, but still...

[decrumpit]

-Confession/Forgiveness of Sins. Through RCC priests, not through Christ Himself directly.

If Christ wanted you to go to Him directly He would not have given His Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins.



Wow, and they really believe that, and that my friends is the legacy of "The Church".

Before we go into Catholic bashing mode, let's remember that Catholics are Christians, however flawed their doctrine may be. Even great thinkers of our faith such as Norman Geisler in Conviction Without Compromise sees them as Christians, albeit with some extreme doctrines.

The Roman Catholic concept of sin is the Biblical concept of sin. See the following link:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mortal_Sin.asp

This is more a critique of Calvin, it doesn't explain anything about sin.

[Ryan R]

Before we go into Catholic bashing mode, let's remember that Catholics are Christians, however flawed their doctrine may be. Even great thinkers of our faith such as Norman Geisler in Conviction Without Compromise sees them as Christians, albeit with some extreme doctrines.

I believe it is possible to contradict Catholic teachings without bashing, and I think it is vital we do so.

I disagree with presenting Catholicism as Christianity. I believe the RCC sufficiently violates the criteria of Salvation as it is outlined as a free gift "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9) but the RCC insists it is works-based, and therefore murdered people like William Tindale who claimed the contrary.

The addition of works-based salvation to the gospel message entirely compromises the message of the gospel (that salvation is a free gift of God, given to those who repent and accept the work Jesus did on the cross by paying once and for all the debt of our sin), changing who Jesus is, what He did, who we are, and what the gospel says about our relationship to our savior. Any works-based salvation is an attempt to earn that which Jesus has freely given, undermining His grace, as seen in the practice of taking the Eucharist which would sacrifice Him over and over again, in spite of what Hebrews warns against "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people" (Hebrews 9:28). This is something we are told in no uncertain terms is unacceptable to God " "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:21), and Christ cannot be dead in vain and salvation still be available since we are save by no other name (Acts 4:12).

We are warned that people will claim to be teaching about Jesus but it will be a different Jesus (and the RCC version of Jesus is refuted in so many places in scriptures) and we are not to accept this Jesus "if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received" (2 Corinthians 11:4), and that "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work" (2 John 1:9-11)

This isn't to mention that the RCC positions itself as the infallible mediator between man and God (clearly Christ's office alone). We submit to Christ as our mediator because "we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin" (Hebrews 4:15), so when He died on the cross He was able to take on our sins because He was free from sin. By contrast, the Catholic Church is stained with (among every other sin imaginable) the blood of the martyrs of the true faith in Jesus and yet positions itself in the lily-white sinlessness required to be the intermediary between man and God.

If your intermediary isn't sinless and you submit to them to wash you clean, like a filthy rag all they will do is smear their own sin in with yours. Jesus is the only one with the purity to remove sin. Submitting to any other source is condemnation.

Therefore, we cannot afford to allow all the lost sheep who are currently warming pews in Catholic Churches to continue in the misconception that the institution they submit to, filthied by the heinous sins it has unrepentantly amassed over the ages in its claims to infallibility, is the straight and narrow path. It isn't and we cannot afford the blood-guiltiness of allowing them to continue on their current path, unwarned:

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves... Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:15-23).

[Amos_with_goats]

With all due respect, it absolutely is not. I have a copy of the Vatican II on my self, so please don't suppose that this link will clarify anything on the issue. The RCC doctrines on sin are clearly in direct contrast with Scripture, primarily because they are paid for by works.

I will go into it at length if you're interested.

Has anyone seen leoxiii?

[The Mighty Sword]

Has anyone seen leoxiii?

He's on a "Coffee break".

[Ryan R]

He's on a "Coffee break".

I'm starting to miss him. For some reason I actually think he might come around on some of these issues.

[Amos_with_goats]

I'm starting to miss him. For some reason I actually think he might come around on some of these issues.

If the Lord is able to convict EVEN hardheaded me, and cause me to reject these things I see no reason why leoxiii would be beyond His grasp.

[Ryan R]

If the Lord is able to convict EVEN hardheaded me, and cause me to reject these things I see no reason why leoxiii would be beyond His grasp.

I know exactly what you mean.

I even kind of liked the way leo burst out in his posts like a race horse out of the stocks... It provided so many opportunities to demonstrate what scripture says on so many issues.

[The Mighty Sword]

I'm starting to miss him. For some reason I actually think he might come around on some of these issues.

I don't know the circumstances of his "coffee break" but he might not return.

I think many of his posts broke forum rules.

[Athanasius]

I have often heard difference opinions regarding " purgatory " does this place exist or is it just another myth or if it does exist is there any scripture indicating it in fact does exist???

If this should be in World religions please adjust accordingly, Thank you,

Peter Kreeft explains it this way:

Purgatory exists because God is both just and merciful.

Purgatory is "like a refiner's fire" (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven nor bad enough for hell. "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (CCC 1030). "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031)...

The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

1. At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ's Body and having thereby received God's supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.
2. But in heaven, we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.
3. Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

... Unlike heaven or hell, purgatory is only temporary. Purgatory takes away the temporal punishment still due for our sins after our Baptism, faith, and repentance have already saved us from the eternal punishment due to our sin, that is hell.

I am not a particular fan of the argument, to be clear.

[The Mighty Sword]

Peter Kreeft explains it this way:

Purgatory exists because God is both just and merciful.

Purgatory is "like a refiner's fire" (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven nor bad enough for hell. "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (CCC 1030). "The Church gives the name Purgatory

The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

1. At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ's Body and having thereby received God's supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.
2. But in heaven, we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.
3. Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

... Unlike heaven or hell, purgatory is only temporary. Purgatory takes away the temporal punishment still due for our sins after our Baptism, faith, and repentance have already saved us from the eternal punishment due to our sin, that is hell.

to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031)...

"The Church gives the name Purgatory"

If I may be so bold as to ask, what church?

Concerning
1.
2.
3.

Sounds like entire "churches" will dwell there a spell