Purgatory. Fact or myth???

[Desperaux]

No, misunderstanding is due to our not having complete knowledge; seeing through a 'glass darkly,' as it were. Having an errant understanding of Scripture isn't necessarily having a sinful, inerrant understanding of Scripture.

Yes it is when one persists in the arrogance that they are the one true church on earth and insist that they have all truth. It is sin to teach error. We are to remove ourselves from false teachers and leaders.

I would submit that you would be able to 'know this' by examining the case laid out by the Catholic church for the doctrine of purgatory.

It is bogus and not based on the right interpretation of scripture.

I don't believe in purgatory either, however, I don't see it as diminishing the work of Christ (without which, purgatory would not be possible).

There is no "however"!

Christ is diminished in the doctrine of purgatory, as well as many other false teachings.


Hebrews 10:10
For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

[Athanasius]

Yes it is when one persists in the arrogance that they are the one true church on earth and insist that they have all truth. It is sin to teach error. We are to remove ourselves from false teachers and leaders.

Not if it's true, it isn't. If it isn't true, then I highly doubt that for the majority of educated Catholics, it's an issue of 'arrogance' that they believe they are the 'one true church' who possess the 'truth'. Again, this is a view they would arrive at through an interpretation of Scripture you don't agree with. If they are wrong and you can show them to be wrong, then, and only then, could you consider them arrogant if they clung to their belief. Otherwise, they are merely mistaken, just as we are mistaken about a few things.

It is bogus and not based on the right interpretation of scripture.

At this point it doesn't matter whether or not you agree with them. What matters is that they have arrived at their belief through Scripture, not through something outside of Scripture.

There is no "however"!

Christ is diminished in the doctrine of purgatory, as well as many other false teachings.

Hebrews 10:10
For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

Purgatory is an issue of sanctification; a 'refiner's fire'. You have yet to show how it diminishes the work of Christ outside your belief that it does. For the Catholic this would simply be the on-going work of Christ post-mortem

[Desperaux]

Not if it's true, it isn't. If it isn't true, then I highly doubt that for the majority of educated Catholics, it's an issue of 'arrogance' that they believe they are the 'one true church' who possess the 'truth'. Again, this is a view they would arrive at through an interpretation of Scripture you don't agree with. If they are wrong and you can show them to be wrong, then, and only then, could you consider them arrogant if they clung to their belief. Otherwise, they are merely mistaken, just as we are mistaken about a few things.

Arrogance is often a subtle sin found within certain false beliefs. It is revealed by the defense of them, and the rejection of scriptural truth, in favour of a feel-good idea.

The belief in purgatory is the result of pure and simple misapplication of scripture added to out and out fabrication.

At this point it doesn't matter whether or not you agree with them. What matters is that they have arrived at their belief through Scripture, not through something outside of Scripture.

It has come to them from those who have been placed in charge of their spiritual well-being! So-called shepherds! You know what God thinks of them and what He has planned for them, don't you???

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.

Ezekiel 34:8-10
And though you were my shepherds, you didn’t search for my sheep when they were lost. You took care of yourselves and left the sheep to starve. Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I now consider these shepherds my enemies, and I will hold them responsible for what has happened to my flock. I will take away their right to feed the flock, and I will stop them from feeding themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths; the sheep will no longer be their prey.

Purgatory is an issue of sanctification; a 'refiner's fire'. You have yet to show how it diminishes the work of Christ outside your belief that it does. For the Catholic this would simply be the on-going work of Christ post-mortem

That is a false connotation. Dead saints are not refined.

We are sanctified while we live, by the work of the Holy Spirit in us. To believe that we are in need of further sanctification when we actually receive it in full upon coming into His very presence at death, is wrong.

Jesus' work is perfected and finished in us "post-mortem"! God already views His children as perfect.

Hebrews 10:14
For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.


Any further purging of sin means that the blood of Christ is unable to cleanse us as He promised and adds to holy scripture the notion that we must DO something to make us worthy of heaven--that is a works-based religion and totally anti-Christ, worthy of utter contempt and rejection.

[notuptome]

Rome bases her teaching of purgatory heavily on books protestants do not receive as scripture. They rely on 2 Macabees I think it is ch 12 and verse 6 but any how the tradition says that Judas Macabees was a great leader in the revolt against rome in 165 bce. Some of his soldiers wore idols under their tunics and were killed in battle and sent to hell because of idoltry. Judas Macabees, a Jew, went into the temple and made an offering of gold and silver to the preist that he might purchase them out of hell and into paradise. This of course conflicts directly with Peters teaching in 1 Pet 1:18. I always like the irony of romes traditions conflicting with Peter their first pope.

Rome teaches that any catholic who dies and is not in a state of friendship with God must go through purgatory to have their sins purged that they may enter eternal life clean.

Historically Judas Macabees did lead the revolt against Antiochus Epiphanes and was used of God in the establishment of Hanakkah. This was the miracle of the cleansing of the temple as prophecied in Dan 8:14. Jesus celebrated this feast of the dedication in John 10:22.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Ryan R]

I wonder if purgatory was originally meant to explain what happened to the trillions of people who lived and died before Christ came?

Kind of like the "limbo" in Dante's Inferno.
People who possessed the sin-nature, but did good things which have been handed down to us (Dante, being of Roman tradition, favored Homer, Virgil, and other classical philosphers and authors).

Actually, the Inferno is part of a trilogy called the Divine Comedy, the second part of which is called Purgatory.

It didn't get as much attention probably both because it's not as alluring as reading about hell and because it wasn't nearly as well written. From a creative standpoint, Dante should have ended with the Inferno. From a Scriptural one, I think that is tragically exactly where a lot of people who place their faith in man-made constructs like Purgatory may wind up, since it tries to replace God's grace with man's effort.

[Ryan R]

I don't believe in purgatory either, however, I don't see it as diminishing the work of Christ (without which, purgatory would not be possible). That's what Peter Kreeft was getting that, it was also what Scruffy said in his now deleted (for some reason) post.

Peter Kreeft gets at a lot of things, many of which are fiction from a Scriptural perspective.

Purgatory necessarily diminishes from the work of Christ, because we are told in Hebrews that Christ paid once and for all for all of our sins.

Purgatory not only denies the fact of the sufficiency of Christ's redeeming grace as given on the cross (the same fact through which we have access to eternal salvation, and through that fact alone), but takes the sufficiency away from Jesus and puts it into the works of man here on earth (which are weighed and measured in the judgment that Christ liberated us from) as well as in the afterlife as their sins are burned off in the punishment Christ already atoned for.

The idea of Purgatory centers around works. You can avoid it by doing good works, and it is exists to burn off bad works. The very physicality of it is inescapably work-related.

It is a direct and inescapable affront to the salvation through faith in grace message (which is the gospel), and renders the once-and-for-all atonement to a simple work done on your behalf, similar to other works one does to their own credit. They are then all necessary for salvation, and therefore equitable to one another, and so ultimately the idea of Purgatory tries to replace the pardon from sin as enable by God and offered to people who would accept it with humility, with human effort that man offers back to God to whom such payment is worth as much as soiled rags.

It fundamentally does deny that salvation is in faith alone, in Christ alone, which is the central element of salvation.

... and it was just made up as a money grab in the first place.

[Ryan R]

Des, do you not see that the very same thing could be said of your stance on tongues?

The Roman Catholic church DOES use scripture to back up their stance.

While I don't agree with the teaching based on other scripture, I am not about to say they are "of the devil". They aren't "mocking" God any more or any less than anyone who believes something and have yet to be shown otherwise. They are (in my opinion and after study) misguided but they aren't all heretical heathens who mock God.

While I strongly, strongly disagree with the charismatic understanding of speaking in tongues, I think it is a grave misrepresentation to equate what is thought of as a manifestation of faith (that all believers speak in tongues) and a doctrine that fundamentally undermines key to eternal life as salvation through faith in grace alone (Purgatory).

[The Mighty Sword]

The real question is, do they speak tongues in purgatory ( if it exists).

[Desperaux]

The real question is, do they speak tongues in purgatory ( if it exists).

[notuptome]

The real question is, do they speak tongues in purgatory ( if it exists).

You need to find a charasmatic catholic to answer that question.

Begin sarcasm
The answer is listed in the book of answers by tradition right next to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and can God create a rock so big even He cannot lift it?

End sarcasam. Get real.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[The Mighty Sword]

You need to find a charasmatic catholic to answer that question.

Begin sarcasm
The answer is listed in the book of answers by tradition right next to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and can God create a rock so big even He cannot lift it?

End sarcasam. Get real.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

A sarcastic charismatic

[Athanasius]

A sarcastic charismatic

I'll describe myself for you: A Finnish, Sarcastic, Charismatic... If you know something about Finns, we have a very, very dry, very sarcastic sense of humor.

The answer though, is of course, yes. And that is not sarcasm!

[Scruffy Kid]

TMS asked a question: specifically, he gave a request for information.
"Is there any Scripture ..." he asked.

Purgatory: Fact or Myth

I have often heard difference opinions regarding " purgatory " does this place exist or is it just another myth or if it does exist is there any scripture indicating it in fact does exist???

My reply is not an attempt to provide information about how someone might seek to support a complex or developed notion of a "purgatorial" -- that is cleansing, or being-pruned -- state, as it exists in the RC doctrine of purgatory, much less in its medieval elaborations.

Nor is my reply an attempt to advocate any position.

It's an attempt to answer the question asked, construing the question modestly, to mean

"Is there any Scriptural support for the idea that persons who die reconciled to God ('saved') will undergo difficulties, trouble, pain, or loss in their transition to their final state of reconciliation with God?"

It seems to me that there are Scriptures which, at the least, can reasonably be taken to imply a "yes" to that question.

Since I'm simply trying to supply information, I would appreciate it if we could dispense with the derogatory, judgmental responses given by people who like to say harsh things about those with whom they disagree. Scripture expressly forbids that kind of talk.

On a side note, where did Scruff's post go?

Most of the following post was posted a while back. For various reasons, I wanted to work on other posts first. Anyhow I really don't enjoy getting insulted and beat up when I try to be helpful. But in request to Jeremy's request I'll restore a version of what I originally wrote.

[Scruffy Kid]

I have often heard difference opinions regarding " purgatory"

If there is no scripture to prove it's existence and it is in error, how is it justified in religions???

To believe in purgatory is to miss the work on the cross. Either Christ's work on the cross was sufficient or it wasn’t.

TMS, your question deserves a balanced Scriptural answer.

It is clear that Jesus, in talking to His Disciples, spoke to them of judgment, and instructed them to ask for forgiveness daily.

Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses ...

Peter's remark

[T]he time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (I Peter 4:17 f.)

suggests that believers face judgment and are held to account, and that even for those who are Christ's the process of final judgment and salvation is not necessarily easy. Paul tells the believers in Corinth

[W]e must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)

Again, Paul writes to the believers at Rome saying

[W]hy do you set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom 14:10-12)

Again Paul says in I Cor. 3:11-13, 14-17

[O]ther foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy

These Scriptures suggest to many earnest Biblical believers that there will be a good deal of difficult facing up to who we are, and to the thorny problems of our own rebelliousness and sinfulness, and to the wicked deeds we have done, which will accompany God's gracious and free salvation. For salvation does not mean, mainly, going to some place called heaven, but coming into the presence of God, and being transformed to be like Him. For us who are messed-up sinners, there is every reason to suppose that that might be difficult. Note that righteous Isaiah, when he has a vision of God, is utterly dismayed:

I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. ... Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.(Isaiah 6:1-7)

These intuitions, Scriptural and logical, seem to me to lie behind the kind of idea that the process of our entering into God's presence, and being made like Christ, may be arduous or painful to those whose lives and habits are ungodly, even if they have trusted in Christ and given themselves to God.

You can get a vivid narative sense of such a perspective from C.S. Lewis's tale The Great Divorce or JRR Tolkien's tale "Leaf by Niggle". Tolkien was a Catholic Christian, Lewis a protestant.

Jesus makes it quite clear in John 15 that there are two types of purging which take place: that by which those who are not found in the true vine are cut out, and ultimately separated and burned up; and that by which those who remain in the true vine are further purified, and pruned, to be more fruitful. Hebrews, similarly, says that God disciplines those He loves, and that this discipline is often painful. This is a point made by most of the NT writers. That God does not, upon our turning to Him, instantly and painlessly remove from our lives, or correct, all that is amiss is made clear in Scripture, and is our common experience as Christians. This does not mean that Christ’s cross is insufficient; it simply means that the power of the cross working is not necessarily instantaneous, easy, or painless for us.

The idea, arguably set out I Cor. 3, II Cor. 5, I Peter 4, Romans 14, and elsewhere, that entry into God’s presence involves judgment, and possible difficulty, pain, or loss even for those whom God adjudges or deems righteous seems to cohere with this idea.

[Athanasius]

Most of the following post was posted a while back. For various reasons, I wanted to work on other posts first. Anyhow I really don't enjoy getting insulted and beat up when I try to be helpful. But in request to Jeremy's request I'll restore a version of what I originally wrote.

Oh, okay I appreciate you restoring it, however, if you are against it, it need not be something you must do.