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Thread: Nero = Beast???

  1. #1
    Partaker of Christ Guest

    Nero = Beast???

    I have started a new thread, as it was mentioned in another thread.

    For those who believe that Nero is/was the beast of Rev 13. I believe you are in error (big style) but what convinces you that this might be correct?

  2. #2
    Nebuchandnezzar was and still is the yoke on the necks of the nations- he will be the beast of Iraq.

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    Lol I thought you were going to say..all those that think Nero was the beast raise your hands... Sorry..I am not awake yet...need more coffee. Be back when I wake up..

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    I have tons of information on Nero so I hope you are really ready for this.

    First he fits this description:

    Daniel 11

    Verse 37
    Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all.


    Nero killed his own mother...he kicked his pregnant wife to death. He married a slave boy after having him castrated. He declared himself a god and had statues made of him and put around Rome where people could sacrifice too..they would laid new born babies at its feet to die. He had no regards for the gods of his fathers..meaning no regard to any pagan gods that the other Caesars worshiped as he thought of himself as a god. He did not 'desire' women. As I said he married a boy..then later married a man. He killed off all his relatives so when he died by killing himself that sent Rome into civil war as the Caesars always came from the blood line of a relative.

    His name adds up to 666.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

    Most scholars contend that the number 666 is a code for the Roman Emperor Nero. (whose name, written in Aramaic, can be valued at 666, using the Hebrew numerology of gematria), a manner of speaking against the emperor without the Roman authorities knowing.616

    A few ancient manuscripts of the Revelation say the number is 616, fifty less than the more well known numeral. A possible reason for the discrepancy lies in early translation. On the assumption that the Revelation was meant to be distributed among the Early Christians, it could very well be assumed that occasionally someone may have used the Latin spelling of Nero's name (Nero Caesar), so the total value of the gematria would be 616.[16][17]

    The early Church father Irenaeus knew several occurrences of the 616-variant but regarded them as a scribal error and affirmed that the number 666 stood "in all the most approved and ancient copies" and is attested by "those men who saw John face to face".

    In May 2005, it was reported that scholars at Oxford University using advanced imaging techniques[19] had been able to read previously illegible portions of the earliest known record of the Book of Revelation (a 1,700 year old papyrus), from the Oxyrhynchus site, Papyrus 115 or P115, dating one century after Irenaeus. The fragment gives the Number of the Beast as 616 (chi, iota, sigma), rather than the majority text 666 (chi, xi, sigma).[1] The other early witness Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) has it written in full: hexakosiai deka hex (lit. six hundred sixteen).[20]

    Significantly, P115 aligns with Codex Alexandrinus (A) and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) which are generally regarded as providing the best testimony to Revelation. Thus, P115 has superior testimony to that of P47 which aligns with Codex Sinaiticus and together form the second-best witness to the Book of Revelation. This has led some scholars to conclude that 616 is the original number of the beast.[21][22]

    Dr. Paul Lewes in his book, A Key to Christian Origins (1932) wrote:

    "The figure 616 is given in one of the two best manuscripts, C (Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, Paris), by the Latin version of Tyconius (DCXVI, ed. Souter in the Journal of Theology, SE, April 1913), and by an ancient Armenian version (ed. Conybaere, 1907). Irenaeus knew about it [the 616 reading], but did not adopt it (Haer. v.30,3), Jerome adopted it (De Monogramm., ed. Dom G Morin in the Rev. Benedictine, 1903). It is probably original. The number 666 has been substituted for 616 either by analogy with 888, the [Greek] number of Jesus (Deissmann), or because it is a triangular number, the sum of the first 36 numbers (1+2+3+4+5+6...+36 = 666)".[23]


    Professor David C. Parker, Professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the University of Birmingham, thinks that 616, although less memorable than 666, is the original.[24] Dr. Ellen Aitken said: “Scholars have argued for a long time over this, and it now seems that 616 was the original number of the beast. It's probably about 100 years before any other version."[25]


    More on next post.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    The Beast of Revelation: IDENTIFIED (1 of 25) Opening

    That is a youtube play list that will go from one video to the next in regards to Nero being the beast..the study is done by Dr. Gentry Jr.

    The Beast of Revelation FAQ
    By Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry


    I know one reason why people don't believe the beast was Nero was because he didn't die from a head wound...or rise from the dead...but we need to remember Revelation is symbolic. When Nero died, Rome nearly died with him..

    http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freeb...s/2186_47e.htm
    THE REVIVAL OF THE BEAST

    And I saw one of his heads had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast. . . . And the beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is one of the seven (Rev. 13:3; 17:1 la).

    A most interesting and perplexing aspect of the Beast is that which indicates his death and revivification. The specific verses of Revelation which contain allusions to this phenomenon are Revelation 13:3, 14 and 17:8, 11. Two of these are cited at the heading of the present chapter. The Death of the Beast, The manner of Nero’s death corresponds with the prophecy of Revelation 13:10: “If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if any one kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed.” In the context of speaking of the Beast, John gives encouragement to those whom the Beast was presently afflicting “Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints,” i.e. that the Beast who slays by the sword would also be slain by the sword. Revelation 13:14 also mentions his death by sword. That Nero did in fact kill by the sword is well-attested fact. Paul, for example, is said to have died under Nero by decapitation by means of the sword.

    1 Tertullian credits “Nero’s cruel sword” as providing the martyr’s blood as seed for the church. 2 He urges his Roman readers: “Consult your histories; you will there find that Nero was the first who assailed with the imperial sword the Christian sect.” 3 Just as well-attested is the fact of Nero’s own death by sword. According to Suetonius, he “drove a dagger into his throat, aided by Epaphroditus, his private secretary.”
    4 He not only killed others by the sword, but himself, as Revelation prophesies. This evidence alone cannot compel the conclusion that Nero is in mind; many emperors died by the sword, even Domitian. But it quite harmoniously lends its voice to the chorus of other evidences, both major and minor.

    The Revival of the Beast

    We now come to a consideration of the Beast’s revival after his death. At first glance this detail regarding the Beast in Revelation may seem fatal to my designation of the Beast as Rome (corporately) and Nero Caesar (specifically). But looks are deceiving. As a matter of fact, this aspect of the Beast’s function in Revelation is futher and quite satisfying confirmation to my position. It is a confirmation that is, when properly understood, not only historically verifiable, but also inappropriate to any other time in Rome’s history than that of the A.D. 60s, the imperial era dominated by Nero Caesar. Let us see how this is so.

    The Beast's Two-fold Referent

    As we consider the proper interpretation, it will be necessary to remember that John allows some shifting in his imagery of the Beast: The one Beast has seven heads (Rev. 13:1; 17:3), which at some places are seven kings collectively considered (Rev. 17:9- 10a), or seven kings who arise in chronological succession Rev. 17: 10b-1 1). Thus, the Beast is generically portrayed as a kingdom. But in the very same contexts the Beast is spoken of as an individual (he is a man with a specific name, Rev. 13:18) and as but one head among the seven (Rev. 17:11). This unusual feature, as noted before, is recognized by a number of commentators. As I begin consideration of the matter it must be recognized that it is one of the heads which received a death blow “And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed” (Rev. 13: 3). I demonstrated earlier that Nero Caesar is the “head” which is in view here. 6 John prophesies that Nero will die by the sword (Rev. 13:10, 14). Nero is the one mysteriously numbered “666” (Rev. 13: 18). Recognizing these factors takes us a long way toward resolving the interpretive is before us. The mortal sword wound to one of the heads is a wound that should have been fatal to the Beast, generically considered. This explains why it is that after the wound was healed and the Beast continued alive, “the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast” (Rev. 13:3 b).

    The seven- headed Beast seems indestructible, for the cry goes up: “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” (Rev. 13:4b). Now how dots all of this imagery have anything to do with Rome and Nero Caesar?

    The Histotial Fulfillment

    At the point we need to reflect upon a most significant series of historical events of the A.D. 60s. A perfectly reasonable and historical explanation of the revived Beast lies before the interpreter. Here is were so many faddish interpretations of Revelation go wrong. They forget the original audience relevance factor and, consequently, overlook the history of the era.


    The Revival of the Beast

    1. When Nero committed suicide on June 9, A.D. 68, two major inter-related historical situations presented themselves to the world. Both carried with them catastrophic consequences. First, with the death of Nero, the Julio-Claudian line of emperors perished from the earth. In other words, the Roman Empire’s founding family vanished from rule. The blood line that had given birth to, extended, stabilized, brought prosperity to, and had received worship from the Roman Empire was suddenly cut off forever. In superstitious, pagan fashion Suetonius notes that “many portents” foreshadowed the tragedy that was to be, i.e. that “the race of the Caesars ended with Nero.” 7 This was a grave and serious matter to the Roman Empire. Second, catastrophe upon catastrophe followed the death of Nero and the extinction of the JuIian line. Immediately, the Roman Empire was hurled into civil wars of great ferocity and dramatic proportions. In fact, the civil wars almost destroyed the empire, seriously threatening to reduce “eternal Rome” to rubble. The peril Rome faced and the upheaval that shook the empire were well known in that era.

    As Josephus notes of these Roman civil wars: “I have omitted to give an exact account of them, because they are well known by all, and they are described by a great number of Greek and Roman authors.” 8 These civil wars are of tremendous importance in first-century world history – and ecclesiastical history, as well. Since the book of Revelation was written during Nero’s reign and in regard to the Neronic evils, as the wealth of evidence demands, 9 we should expect that prophetic allusions to Rome’s civil wars would appear. And they do!

    (more next post)
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  6. #6
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    The Beast of Revelation (continued from previous post)

    In introducing the months following the death of Nero, Tacitus (A.D. 56-117) wrote: The history on which 1 am entering is that of a period rich in disasters, terrible with battles, tom by civil struggles, horrible even in peace. Four emperors failed by the sword there were three civil wars, more foreign wars and often both at the same time. There was success in the East, ill misfortune in the West. Illyricum was disturbed, tile Gallic provinces wavering, Britain subdued and immediately let go. The Sarmatae and Suebi rose against us; the Dacians won fame by defeats inflicted and sufred; even the Parthians were almost roused to arms through the trickery of a pretended Nero.

    Moreover, Italy was distressed by disasters unknown before or returning after the lapse of ages. Cities of the rich fertile shores of Campania were swallowed up or overwhelmed; Rome was devastated by conflagrations, in which her most ancient shrines were consumed and the very Capitol fired by citizens’ hands. Sacred rites were defiled; there were adulteries in high places. The sea was filled with exiles, its cliffs made foul with the bodies of the dead. In Rome there was more awful cruelty. . . . Besides the manifold misfortunes that befell mankind, there were prodigies in the sky and on the earth, warnings given by thunderbolts, and prophecies of the future, both joyful and gloomy, uncertain and clear. For never was it more fully proved by awful disasters of the Roman people or by indubitable signs that gods care not for our safety, but for our punishment. 12 Tacitus’s detailed account of the ruin wreaked upon Rome almost equals in psychological horror, cultural devastation, and human carnage that which befell Jerusalem during the Jewish War, as recorded by Josephus and Tacitus. 13 The Roman civil wars were the first fruits of Nero’s death.

    10. Nero died June 8, A.D. 68; Galba was murdered January 15, A.D. 69 Otho committed suicide April 17, A.D. 69 and Vitellius was slain on December 20, A.D. 69. 11.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus) The Jewish War which ended with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. 12. Tacitus, Historitu 1:2-3. 13. Josephus, Wars of th Jews, and Tacitus, Histories 510K. See also Eusebius, Eccleszstkal History, 3:5.8.

    The Revival of the Beast

    73 These civil wars would, to all appearance, strike the citizens, subjects, neighbors, and enemies of the vast empire — Christian and pagan alike — as being the very death throes of Rome, the Beast generically considered. Indeed, in Tacitus’s estimation it very nearly was so: “This was the condition of the Roman state when Serius Galba, chosen consult for the second time, and his colleague Titus Vinius entered upon the year that was to be for Galba his last and for the state almost to end.” 14 Before the world’s startled eyes, the seven headed Beast (Rome) 15 was toppling to its death as its sixth head (Nero)16 was mortally wounded with the sword. As Suetonius viewed the long months immediately following Nero’s death, the empire “for a long time had been unsettled, and as it were, drifting, through the usurpation and violent death of three emperors.” 17 Josephus records the matter as perceived by the Roman generals Vespasian and Titus, while they were engaged in the Jewish War in A.D. 69: “And now they were both in suspense about the public affairs, the Roman empire being then in a fluctuating condition, and did not go on with their expedition against the Jews, but thought that to make any attack upon foreigners was now unseasonable, on account of the solicitude they were in for their own country.”

    18 The reports of the destruction and rapine were so horrible that it is reported of General Vespasian: “And as this sorrow of his was violent, he was not able to support the torments he was under, nor to apply himself further in other wars when his native country was laid waste.” 19 According to the pseudo (after-the-fact) prophecy of 4 Ezra 12:16-19, written around A.D, 100, the Empire was “in danger of falling”:

    “In the midst of the time of that kingdom great struggles shall arise, and it shall be in danger of falling; nevertheless it shall not fall then, but shall regain its former power.”2° Josephus agrees that during this time Rome was brought near to utter “ruin.”21 He notes that “about this time it was that heavy calamities came about Rome on all sides.” 22 Josephus writes elsewhere that “the Roman government [was] in a great internal disorder, by the continual changes of its rulers, and [the Germans] understood that every part of the habitable earth under them was in an unsettled and tottering condition.”23

    Men everywhere understood that “the state of the Romans was so ill.” 24 But what eventually occurred at the end of these death throes? The rest of Suetorlius’s quotation begun above informs us that “the empire, which for a long time had been unsettled and, as it were, drifting through the usurpation and violent death of three emperors, was at last taken in hand and given stability by the Flavian family.” 25 Joseph sets forth this view of things when he writes, “So upon this confirmation of Vespasian’s entire government, which was now settled, and upon the unexpected deliverance of the public affairs of the Romam from ruin, Vespasian turned his thoughts to what remained unsubdued in Judea.” 2G Thus, after a time of grievous civil wars, the Empire was revived by the ascending of Vespasian to the purple.

    James Moffatt states the matter well when he writes regarding Revelation 13:3: “The allusion is . . . to the terrible convulsions which in 69 A.D. shook the empire to its foundations

    i. 11 ). Nero’s death with the bloody interregnum after it, was a wound to the State, from which it only recovered under Vespasian. It fits the tradition of the wounded head. . . . The vitality of the pagan empire, shown in this power of righting itself after the revolution, only added to its prestige.” 27 The relevant verses in Revelation regarding the death and revivification of the Beast can properly be understood as prophesying the earth-shaking historical events of the late A.D. 60s era. Rome died, as it were, and returned again to life. In light ofJohn’s original audience (Rev. 1:4, 11), his call for their careful consideration (Rev. 1:3; 13:9), and his contemporary expectation (Rev. 1:1, 3), we must wonder why commentators project themselves into the distant future seeking some other fulfillment of these events. All the evidence heretofore dovetails nicely with this revivification factor.

    An Objection Considered

    The reference to the “eighth” king in Revelation 17:11 has caused some commentators to stumble here. There we read: “And the beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is one of the seven. . . .“ In response to a view such as I am presenting, some commentators note that the eighth emperor of Rome was actually Otho, the second of the rulers during Rome’s awfull civil wars. Thus, they point out, this head does not refer to Vespasian.

    Given the interpretive approach presented above, it would appear that the eighth head (according to my calculation) is one of the destroying elements of Rome, not one who actually stabilized the Empire, causing its revival. Consequently, the supposed imagery fails. This problem should not deter acceptance of the view I have presented. A consultation of the Greek text helps alleviate the apparent tension in the view. Exegetically, the chronological line of heads/kings is spoken of with carefid exactness by use of the definite article, ‘the.” That is, if we translate John with exact literalness, he writes of the “kings” (emperors) in Revelation 17:10 as follows: “the five fell, the one is, the other not yet come, and whenever he comes a little [while] him it behooves to remain.”

    But the definite article is conspicuously absent in a literal translation of the reference to the eighth head/king in Revelation 17:11: “And the beast which was and is not, even he an eighth is.“ 29 The definite article that clearly and repetitively defined the chronological series of head/kings (“the five,” “t/u one,” “the one to come”) vanishes before the eighth is mentioned. Thus, this eighth king is “an eighth,” i,e, it refers not to any one particular individual, but to the revival of the Empire itself under one who is outside of the originally specified seven kings. The Roman Empire is arising from ruin. There is a very important sense in which the revival of the Empire under Vespasian, was a revival under “an eighth,” who is, nevertheless, “of the seven.” It is the same Roman Empire which is brought to life horn the death of the civil wars that is in view here; it is not some new empire.

    John’s concern is particularly with the contemporaneous events: the Roman civil wars that occurred within the compass of the reign of the seven kings. The eighth is beyond his most pressing and immediate concern (although it is not unimportant), and thus is not specified and detailed. In addition, the number eight is the number of resurrection.30 The eighth day is the beginning of a new week. Thus, Jesus was resurrected on the first or eighth day John 20:1). This re-establishment of the Roman Empire under Vespasian offers a new begnning (the Julio-Claudian line was gone) and a revival of the Roman Empire, which had been through death throes.

    That recovery will come shortly after the demise of the original seven when an eighth arises.

    Conclusion

    Despite the pervasive view among modern evangelical, Revelation was a crucially relevant book to the apostolic era church. We have seen how many roads lead to the Rome/Nero view of the Beast. Perhaps the most difficult piece of prophetic material for the Rome/Nero view of the Beast is that which speaks of the Beast’s death and revival. Yet again, however, an understanding of the circumstances of the first century is immensely helpful to our interpretation. With the death of Nero and the ensuing civil wars which plagued Rome, the world witnessed what surely was to be the final demise of mighty Rome. But to the surprise of friend and foe alike, Rome arose anew under Vespasian to assert its vitality and to demonstrate its power. Under the next two emperors – Vespasian and Titus — Christianity would be left in peace for more than a decade. John clearly spoke of the events of his era as a true prophet of God and as one concerned for his “fellow-partakers in the tribulation” (Rev. 1:9). He did not overlook the earth-shaking events of his own era; he spoke directly to them.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  7. #7
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    Here is a statement from the Last Disciple (written by Sigmund Brouwer and Hank Hanegraaff) against the kind of reasoning used in the Left Behind books:

    The Last Disciple presents and alternative to the Left Behind understanding of end-time events based on a methodology called Exegetical Eschatology (E2). I coined the phrase Exegetical Eschatology to underscore the fact that above all else I am deeply committed to a proper method of biblical interpretation rather than to any particular model of eschatology. Put another way, the plain and proper reading of a biblical passage must always take precedence over a particular eschatology presupposition.

    For example, the pretribulational rapture model featured in the Left Behind series interprets Revelation 13 in a strictly literal fashion. Thus, Antichrist dies and resurrects himself physically in order to vindicator his claim to be god. The following passage from "The Indwelling, volume 7 of the Left Behind series, communicates the point:

    Carpathia (antichrist in the book) catapulted himself to a standing position in the narrow end of his own coffin. He turned triumphantly to face the crowd, and David noticed makeup, putty, surgical staples, and stitches in the box where Nicolae's head had lain. (this is after he was fatally shot in the head and died).

    Standing there before now deathly silence, Nicolae looked as if he had just stepped out of his closet where a valet had helped him into a crisp suit. Shoes gleaming, laces taut, socks smooth, suit unwrinkled, tie hanging just so, he stood broad-shouldered, fresh faced, shaved, hair in place, no pallor. Fortunato and the seven were on their knees, hiding their faces, sobbing aloud. Nicolae raised his hands to shoulder height and said loudly enough for everyone to hear, without aid of a microphone, "Peace. Be still." With that the clouds ascended and vanished, and the sun reappeared in all its brilliance and heat. People squinted and covered their eyes.

    "Peace be unto you," he said. "My peace I give you. Please stand." He paused while everyone rose, eyes still locked on him, bodies rigid with fear. "Let not your heart be troubled. Believe in me."

    Murmuring began. David head people marveling that the was not using a microphone, but neither was he raising his voice. And yet everyone could hear. It was if Carpathia read their minds. "You marvel that I speak directly to your hearts without amplification, yet you saw me raise myself from the dead. Who but the most high god has power over death? Who but god controls the earth and sky?"

    In sharp contrast, The Last Disciples series exegeses Revelation 13 in light of the whole of Scriptures. Thus, Satan can parody the work of Christ through 'all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders' (2 Thessalonians 2:9), but he cannot literally do what Christ did...namely raise himself from the dead. What is at stake here is nothing less than the deity and resurrection of Christ. In a Christian worldview, only God has the power to raise the dead. If Antichrist could "raise (himself) from the dead' and control 'the earth and sky," Christianity would lose the basis for believing that Christ resurrection vindicates His claim to deity. Further, if satan possesses the creative powers of God, this would subvert the post-resurrection appearance of Christ in that Satan could have masqueraded as the resurrected Christ. Moreover, the notion that satan can perform acts that are indistinguishable from the genuine miracles suggest a dualistic worldview in which God and satan are equal powers competing for dominance.

    Hopefully these will be good studies for those seeking.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  8. #8
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    The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

    (7) charagma, "a stamp" or "imprinted mark." "The mark of the beast" (peculiar to Revelation) was the badge of the followers of Antichrist, stamped on the forehead or right hand (Revelation 13:16; compare Ezekiel 9:4,6). It was symbolic of character and was thus not a literal or physical mark, but the impress of paganism on the moral and spiritual life. It was the sign or token of apostasy. As a spiritual state or condition it subjected men to the wrath of God and to eternal torment (Revelation 14:9-11); to noisome disease (Revelation 16:2); to the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). Those who received not the mark, having faithfully endured persecution and martyrdom, were given part in the first resurrection and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:4). The "beast" symbolizes the anti-Christian empires, particularly Rome under Nero, who sought to devour and destroy the early Christians.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    I have started a new thread, as it was mentioned in another thread.

    For those who believe that Nero is/was the beast of Rev 13. I believe you are in error (big style) but what convinces you that this might be correct?
    (Exhale)... let's see...

    • Nero is literally the only name in history (of the first major persecutor of Christians, no less) that fits both 666 and 616; both spellings of Nero's name are historically verified, and their numeric equivalents are irrefutable
    • Nero is "a man", as John said the mark applied to
    • John said that the "sixth king" was presently ruling; Nero was the 6th emperor of Rome
    • John said the Beast's persecution of the saints would last 42 months; Nero's persecution lasted exactly 42 months
    • John said the 7th king would reign "a little while"; the 7th emperor of Rome ruled for only a matter of months before he was killed
    • Several other points of evidence in the Revelation and the New Testament indicate that the Revelation was written before 70 AD; since Nero ruled before 70 AD, everything fits to a T
    • John told his first-century contemporaries that if they had wisdom, they could decipher the meaning of the number 666; how could people living in the first-century decipher the meaning of a number if the number was referring to a man who would lived thousands of years in the future? John's advice would be painfully mocking if that was the case.


    Not to mention the repeated statements at both ends of the book that "the time is near". [Revelation 1.1,3; 22.6,10] The fact that John opens and closes with these statements is a not-so-subtle hint as to what time frame it was concerned with...
    Last edited by markedward; Dec 23rd 2009 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Nero killed his own mother...he kicked his pregnant wife to death. He married a slave boy after having him castrated. He declared himself a god and had statues made of him and put around Rome where people could sacrifice too..they would laid new born babies at its feet to die. He had no regards for the gods of his fathers..meaning no regard to any pagan gods that the other Caesars worshiped as he thought of himself as a god. He did not 'desire' women. As I said he married a boy..then later married a man. He killed off all his relatives so when he died by killing himself that sent Rome into civil war as the Caesars always came from the blood line of a relative.

    Was he related to mohammed???

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
    Nebuchandnezzar was and still is the yoke on the necks of the nations- he will be the beast of Iraq.
    Nebuchadnezzar is dead. According to Daniel 4, Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged that YHWH was mightier than all things.

  12. #12
    Moonglow, and Markedward.

    What these have layed out should open our eyes of understanding.

    I would add; What then would be the implication of what Jesus refered to as the adomination of desolation in which Daniel spoke of? It would lay in the fact that the sacrifice would be stopped. That is the abomination that will lead to the desolation. This sacrifice is to Nero Caesar as if he is god.

    Wars of the Jews; Flavius Josephus
    Book 2 Chapter 17

    2. And at this time it was that some of those that principally excited the people to go to war made an assault upon a certain fortress called Masada. They took it by treachery, and slew the Romans that were there, and put others of their own party to keep it. At the same time Eleazar, the son of Ananias the high priest, a very bold youth, who was at that time governor of the temple, persuaded those that officiated in the Divine service to receive no gift or sacrifice for any foreigner. And this was the true beginning of our war with the Romans; for they rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account; and when many of the high priests and principal men besought them not to omit the sacrifice, which it was customary for them to offer for their princes, they would not be prevailed upon. These relied much upon their multitude, for the most flourishing part of the innovators assisted them; but they had the chief regard to Eleazar, the governor of the temple.
    3. Hereupon the men of power got together, and conferred with the high priests, as did also the principal of the Pharisees; and thinking all was at stake, and that their calamities were becoming incurable, took counsel what was to be done. Accordingly, they determined to try what they could do with the seditious by words, and assembled the people before the brazen gate, which was that gate of the inner temple [court of the priests] which looked toward the sun-rising. And, in the first place, they showed the great indignation they had at this attempt for a revolt, and for their bringing so great a war upon their country; after which they confuted their pretense as unjustifiable, and told them that their forefathers had adorned their temple in great part with donations bestowed on them by foreigners, and had always received what had been presented to them from foreign nations; and that they had been so far from rejecting any person's sacrifice (which would be the highest instance of impiety,) that they had themselves placed those donation about the temple which were still visible, and had remained there so long a time; that they did now irritate the Romans to take arms against them, and invited them to make war upon them, and brought up novel rules of a strange Divine worship, and determined to run the hazard of having their city condemned for impiety, while they would not allow any foreigner, but Jews only, either to sacrifice or to worship therein. And if such a law should be introduced in the case of a single private person only, he would have indignation at it, as an instance of inhumanity determined against him; while they have no regard to the Romans or to Caesar, and forbid even their oblations to be received also; that however they cannot but fear, lest, by thus rejecting their sacrifices, they shall not be allowed to offer their own; and that this city will lose its principality, unless they grow wiser quickly, and restore the sacrifices as formerly, and indeed amend the injury [they have offered foreigners] before the report of it comes to the ears of those that have been injured.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ View Post
    I have started a new thread, as it was mentioned in another thread.

    For those who believe that Nero is/was the beast of Rev 13. I believe you are in error (big style) but what convinces you that this might be correct?
    For me, that Revelation was written for then not really now and that the Church was under heavy persecution and that this was a book of hope to encourage believers. I don't see it so much as future prophecy as much as I see it as about back then though coded so only believers understood at the time. That's what I think

  14. #14
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    Many Antichrists

    "You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."
    (1 John 2:18)
    The 'Antichrist' is a spirit but is personified in a man from time to time through the ages. Yes, Nero was the 'beast.' So was Hitler.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  15. #15
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    Doesn't a lot of scripture have dual prophetic fulfillment? Why couldn't revelations? One big problem with the Nero thing, IMO, is some events described in Revelations are world wide events that history doesn't say has happened yet.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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