Relative might be having false ideas about Christ.

[Shay0321]

First off i wanted to thank you for taking the time to read this but my dilemna goes a little something like this. My two cousins Frankie and Danny have been Christians for a long time growing up in a Christian family. The older one attends Point Loma Nazerene University and it is his freshmen year there now. As you can imagine I believe the theology that's taught there is liberal but I cannot truly be one to judge this as I do not attend there.Danny frequently comes back to visit, almost every weekend because the university granted him a car for medical reasons. He tells us we need to have a meeting and he brings up the Sermon on the Mount and refers to the verse Matthew 5:20- 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

He doubts his salvation solely because he believes you must be righteouss to go to heaven. We explain that Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees and not praising them in the verse and Danny understands that but this is his reasoning now . "To be saved we must have the fruit of the spirit within us. If we have sin in our lives then the holy spirit cannot indwell us thus we are saved. Also he asked us to name a situation where it was ever necessary to sin, and we sin with the intention of knowing we are saved so we abuse our forgivness thus we are not saved. In short, Danny, one of the most deep and theological Christians and a very important help in me finding Jesus and studying theology and apologetics, doesnt believe he's or almost anyone for that matter is going to heaven because you have to be righteouss on top of accepting Christ to be saved. He doesn't think we have to become sinless but his definition is trying your absolute, absolute hardest at becoming sinless. Please help, are his conceptions as incorrect as I think they are? Thank you

[Free Indeed]

The Pharisees were, in Christ's own words, hypocrites. No hypocrite will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I take the Lord's words at face value here. Unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, we will not enter the Kingdom either.

[goykodesh]

Righteousness is a heart condition.

[Firefighter]

The Bible says that OUR righteousness is... well... I won't provide you with a literal translation, but it ain't very nice. Since ours is about the most unclean thing a person could think of, we get to use HIS righteousness by faith in place of our own.


Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and HIS righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare HIS righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

2 Corinthians 9:8-9 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

Titus 3:5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


It was, is and always will be ALL ABOUT CHRIST.

[notuptome]

One of the sins of the Pharisees was the assumption on their part that they were righteous. Self righteousness is ever before the religious types. Righteousness is not reckoned by works but by grace. David said blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[theBelovedDisciple]

The Bible says that OUR righteousness is... well... I won't provide you with a literal translation, but it ain't very nice. Since ours is about the most unclean thing a person could think of, we get to use HIS righteousness by faith in place of our own.


Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and HIS righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare HIS righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

2 Corinthians 9:8-9 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

Titus 3:5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


It was, is and always will be ALL ABOUT CHRIST.

I agree with what UM said here.. Righteousness is about Christ.. a person is Declared Righteous in the Eyes of God by Faith in Jesus Christ and What He has already accomplished.. it is a HEART ISSUE.... Jesus Himself is the Gift of Righteousness...our 'righteousness' or attempts to be 'righteous' in our own eyes.. are but filthy rags... dirty.. even the best we can do .. is 'dirty' when compared to the Perfection found in the Lamb of God.. Jesus Christ.. sounds like your relatives are trapped in 'bondage'.. the bondage of condemnation....... lied to .. and told that 'you have to measure up'.. its about how 'righteous' you can become.. this is a trap by the wicked one.. Jesus will set you free from that Condemnation when you Truly and Genuinely Believe in Him and what He has done for you...

Righteousness is about Christ.. He is the Gift of Righteousness..

You mentioned that your relatives were Christians because they grew up in a 'christian' home... that does not make one a Christian...

the New Birth.. Being Born AGain from Above.. is what makes a Person a Chrisitan.. its not about joining this group or that group, or having memberships in 3-4 different select religious clubs..

Being Born Again is an Operation of God. that is Started by Him.. and Finished by HIm... it is thru the Will and Foreknowledge of God.. not the will of men in religion...

Righteousness is about Christ.. It always Has been.. Oh that People would see the Light.. and look to the Cross.. where He accomplsihed it all!

[IsItLove?]

He tells us we need to have a meeting and he brings up the Sermon on the Mount and refers to the verse Matthew 5:20- 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

He doubts his salvation solely because he believes you must be righteouss to go to heaven.

This is true, you must be righteous!

explain that Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees and not praising them in the verse and Danny understands that but this is his reasoning now .
"To be saved we must have the fruit of the spirit within us. If we have sin in our lives then the holy spirit cannot indwell us thus we are saved.

Act 5:32
And we are witnesses of these events, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.

Here lies some of the problem.
What constitutes sin now that Jesus has fulfilled and remove the written law that judged us and condemned us?
If the old command was fulfill on our behalf by being applied to Jesus and the penalty paid in full, our death, what now is the standard, what now is the command?

Joh 6:29
Jesus replied, “This is the deed God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent.”

This is our obedience (Faith!) in God to save us, us who are unable to save our selves.

Also he asked us to name a situation where it was ever necessary to sin, and we sin with the intention of knowing we are saved so we abuse our forgivness thus we are not saved.

Salvation remains a work of God, not man!
The problem we find in the church and where Danny is properly focusing is that the righteousness that is deposited in us does and will make us righteous because it is a change of nature. Otherwise it is not there.

But it is only the mature who cease to sin. 1Pe 4:1,2 Heb 6:1

In short, Danny, one of the most deep and theological Christians and a very important help in me finding Jesus and studying theology and apologetics, doesnt believe he's or almost anyone for that matter is going to heaven because you have to be righteouss on top of accepting Christ to be saved.

Well this is more of a matter of if your are righteous because of faith in God to make you acceptable, it will eventually show.

He doesn't think we have to become sinless but his definition is trying your absolute, absolute hardest at becoming sinless. Please help, are his conceptions as incorrect as I think they are? Thank you

We do have to become sinless, preferable here on earth but eventually it will happen if we believe in God to take us all the way.

Some deny faith by holding to the always a sinner, always a slave to sin while in this life, which is the same as saying God is unable, and the scriptures are false.
Some go even further implying that God will justify sinners in their sin by grace. (disgusting!)

No, God's grace both covers our sin and removes it from our lives, totally if we have Faith!

Sounds like Danny is on the right path, but with some misunderstandings along the way, I will pray for him.

1Jo 3:7

Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous

Mat 7:23

"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Jam 3:2

For we all stumble in many ways. If someone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect individual, able to control the entire body as well.

Mat 5:48

So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Butch5]

Why do you think he is wrong? If he is as you say he may be a little overly strict but I don't see how one can enter the "Kingdom of Heaven" if one does not live righteously. Just because one is is justified at one time does not mean they will remain in that state. If one is acquitted of a crime they may have been guilty but have been acquitted, this does not preclude the possibility of them committing another crime. So, because one has been justified by Christ one can later turn and no longer be justified.

[Firefighter]

Why do you think he is wrong? If he is as you say he may be a little overly strict but I don't see how one can enter the "Kingdom of Heaven" if one does not live righteously. Just because one is is justified at one time does not mean they will remain in that state. If one is acquitted of a crime they may have been guilty but have been acquitted, this does not preclude the possibility of them committing another crime. So, because one has been justified by Christ one can later turn and no longer be justified.

Maybe we have different definitions of "NOT by works of righteousness which we have done"

Titus 3:5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[inforlife]

keep running the race. doctrine has part. so because good works prove faith "the doctrine". I have asked Elohim to help me get more out of my "talents". We all have sinned, but being a part of Christ we are of Jesus stock..."His fullness" righteousness, plus more things of good report. I don't know how someone who is trying or just flat out are unrighteous will make it to the finish line, but as those who have became Jesus stock we have put away our sinning, but and so...as I have written we need help because we've sinned and we will also need doctrine which has righteousness(remember even the demons fear) in it to get to Heaven...Faith and Grace are needed too. Remember your either for or against Jesus. I hope Danny as a student has time to study what he must because scholars and such must study. Keep getting back up and running the race(trying your absolute hardest) also if you can't feed a hundred just feed one!

[Butch5]

Maybe we have different definitions of "NOT by works of righteousness which we have done"

Titus 3:5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Could you define what Paul means by "works of righteousness"?

[Butch5]

Originally Posted by Urban Missionary
Maybe we have different definitions of "NOT by works of righteousness which we have done"

Titus 3:5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[QUO5---TE]ButchCould you define what Paul means by "works of righteousness"? [/QUOTE]

Here is Paul's definition of works of righteousness.


Philippians 3:4-9 ( KJV )
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul says that "His own" righteousness is fulfilling the law. I think it is pretty clear that this is the same meaning we find in the passage from Titus that you quoted.