Buying & Selling In The End Times

[Whitey]

Correct me if i am wrong with the following two statements:

1) The Bible says the believers will be spared the wrath of God when He pours out His judgement on the earth, right?
2) To buy and sell in the end times you must have taken the mark of the beast, right?

for now i am going to assume those two verses are correct. so, if the believers are still on earth during the end times, how are we going to survive if we refuse to take the mark?

if we cant buy, what do we do? starve? steal?

if we cant sell, where do we get money to buy? but yet, we cant buy so what good does money do us?

will God supply everything we need for us? like the way he fed the 5,000?

or will we be immune from God's wrath? even so, we still have to buy food.

or will we be taken out of this world, as in Raptured?


Mike

[Firstfruits]

Correct me if i am wrong with the following two statements:

1) The Bible says the believers will be spared the wrath of God when He pours out His judgement on the earth, right?
2) To buy and sell in the end times you must have taken the mark of the beast, right?

for now i am going to assume those two verses are correct. so, if the believers are still on earth during the end times, how are we going to survive if we refuse to take the mark?

if we cant buy, what do we do? starve? steal?

if we cant sell, where do we get money to buy? but yet, we cant buy so what good does money do us?

will God supply everything we need for us? like the way he fed the 5,000?

or will we be immune from God's wrath? even so, we still have to buy food.

or will we be taken out of this world, as in Raptured?


Mike

We have to be ready to die, as it is written, those that do not worship the beast or take his mark will be killed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Whitey]

But surely there has got to be someway to survive during this period. i've heard/read about people storing up tons and tons of food, water, medicine, supplies, etc, in preparation for these times. i've also read about people that think they know places where they could survive undetected for a long time, where nobody could find them.

Being ready to die is one thing, but being smart enough to stay alive and do the Lord's work during this time period seems the way to go to me.

but.....how can we do the Lord's work if we cant buy or sell?

Mike

[tango]

But surely there has got to be someway to survive during this period. i've heard/read about people storing up tons and tons of food, water, medicine, supplies, etc, in preparation for these times. i've also read about people that think they know places where they could survive undetected for a long time, where nobody could find them.

Being ready to die is one thing, but being smart enough to stay alive and do the Lord's work during this time period seems the way to go to me.

but.....how can we do the Lord's work if we cant buy or sell?

Mike

Truth be told I think the people who store vast amounts of food and water haven't really thought things through.

When you think that recommended fluid intakes are something like 1-2 litres per adult per day in termperate areas and we're talking about 1260 days, that means that working with a midrange figure you need approximately two tonnes of water per adult for that period. In a warmer area you'll need more. In a cold area you'll need a way to thaw it out before you can drink it. You also need suitable containers to store it for such a long period.

If the plan is to store dried food you need even more water to hydrate the food, as well as enough space to store that much food, water, clothing and enough medication to address whatever issues might arise.

Of course the main problem arises if the stash is found - if someone else gets to your hiding spot before you do, all your preparation was for nothing as the intruder now has enough food, water, ammo etc to survive there for years. If you're discovered by an roaming hungry mob your choices are either shoot them or share with them. If you shoot them everything boils down to whether you can kill every single invader before you either get hit yourself, run out of bullets, or tire and fall asleep. If you share, you need a bigger stash to cover the time, and of course end up risking the mob attacking you once they are inside your hiding spot.

You can't flee with your supplies - carrying two tonnes of water per adult isn't going to happen unless you have truly superhuman strength.


All these considerations address a secular apocalyptic scenario. Throw in extra horrors of a Biblical-scale apocalypse as described in Revelation and things get even uglier. To be honest I don't see any way we can hope to survive through our own efforts, nor would what limited survival we can eke out bring any glory to God. When we see how the Israelites ate the manna from heaven, Elijah was fed by ravens, the widow made Elijah cakes every day when she started out with enough oil and flour to last one day, I think if we are to survive we're going to have to learn to lean on God to that extent.

[My heart's Desire]

Well, naturally I don't think "WE" the Church will be here for the 70th week of Daniel. Regardless, your question has some merit as there will be those who do believe during 70th week. We know that 12,000 from the tribes of Israel will be sealed, and there are also a great number of Gentiles who come through the great tribulation. (Rev 7)

[Firstfruits]

But surely there has got to be someway to survive during this period. i've heard/read about people storing up tons and tons of food, water, medicine, supplies, etc, in preparation for these times. i've also read about people that think they know places where they could survive undetected for a long time, where nobody could find them.

Being ready to die is one thing, but being smart enough to stay alive and do the Lord's work during this time period seems the way to go to me.

but.....how can we do the Lord's work if we cant buy or sell?

Mike

It will not just be a case of not being able to buy and sell, but those that know you shall betray you.

Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Firstfruits

[danield]

The two witnesses will be dressed in sackcloth. They will not touch anything that has anything to do with the mark of the beast. It is why they are dressed in sackcloth. The problem is not providing for yourself, but for your loved ones and other Christians. You can work as a day laborer to get food and shelter, and I am quite certain that there will be people who will take advantage of the system to get cheap labor from those who hold their faith in God above money. My problem is not for myself but for other loved ones and other Christians. This is the greatest paradox in the entire bible to me. Does God want me to help provide for those in that time of tribulation? Should I disregard being a responsible person and my love for my fellow Christian to help the countless people who will struggle with this problem?
As Paul stated love is the greatest gift that we can have.

1 Corinthians 13:13 13 Three things will last forever-- faith, hope, and love-- and the greatest of these is love.

God has said that there will be a seal placed on the foreheads of 144000. Are these people leaders of families who provide for others during the tribulation? I think this is what the seal represents. I am not certain on this but it sure looks like it to me. However, these are somehow restricted to the Jewish tribes.

Taking the mark is a direct disrespect against God. I love God and his ways way, way, way too much to take the mark for anyone much less myself. I would rather work as a slave then disrespect God. I will do my best to provide for those who I can, but I know I will be limited in what I can do.

I think what this all means is, do you love your lifestyle and money more than God? You will find a way to work, but you will not be able to support your standard of living that you are accustomed to without taking the mark. I know scripture says that even that poor will have to take the mark to buy and sale, but there will be a way to provide some sort of daily staples for you and your family.

[Firstfruits]

The two witnesses will be dressed in sackcloth. They will not touch anything that has anything to do with the mark of the beast. It is why they are dressed in sackcloth. The problem is not providing for yourself, but for your loved ones and other Christians. You can work as a day laborer to get food and shelter, and I am quite certain that there will be people who will take advantage of the system to get cheap labor from those who hold their faith in God above money. My problem is not for myself but for other loved ones and other Christians. This is the greatest paradox in the entire bible to me. Does God want me to help provide for those in that time of tribulation? Should I disregard being a responsible person and my love for my fellow Christian to help the countless people who will struggle with this problem?
As Paul stated love is the greatest gift that we can have.

1 Corinthians 13:13 13 Three things will last forever-- faith, hope, and love-- and the greatest of these is love.

God has said that there will be a seal placed on the foreheads of 144000. Are these people leaders of families who provide for others during the tribulation? I think this is what the seal represents. I am not certain on this but it sure looks like it to me. However, these are somehow restricted to the Jewish tribes.

Taking the mark is a direct disrespect against God. I love God and his ways way, way, way too much to take the mark for anyone much less myself. I would rather work as a slave then disrespect God. I will do my best to provide for those who I can, but I know I will be limited in what I can do.

I think what this all means is, do you love your lifestyle and money more than God? You will find a way to work, but you will not be able to support your standard of living that you are accustomed to without taking the mark. I know scripture says that even that poor will have to take the mark to buy and sale, but there will be a way to provide some sort of daily staples for you and your family.

Are we not expecting the word to be fulfilled?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Firstfruits

[T W Taylor]

Hello Danield,

The two witnesses will be dressed in sackcloth. They will not touch anything that has anything to do with the mark of the beast. It is why they are dressed in sackcloth. The problem is not providing for yourself, but for your loved ones and other Christians. You can work as a day laborer to get food and shelter, and I am quite certain that there will be people who will take advantage of the system to get cheap labor from those who hold their faith in God above money. My problem is not for myself but for other loved ones and other Christians. This is the greatest paradox in the entire bible to me. Does God want me to help provide for those in that time of tribulation? Should I disregard being a responsible person and my love for my fellow Christian to help the countless people who will struggle with this problem?

I don’t think there will be anything to buy, -- nothing to sell. I do think you are correct, The churches will help each other all they can. Buying, selling and trading, with each other, of the things they have, or grow.

Eze 7:19 'They will throw their silver into the streets, And their gold will be like refuse; Their silver and their gold will not be able to deliver them In the day of the wrath of the Lord; They will not satisfy their souls, Nor fill their stomachs, Because it became their stumbling block of iniquity.

As Paul stated love is the greatest gift that we can have.

1 Corinthians 13:13 13 Three things will last forever-- faith, hope, and love-- and the greatest of these is love

.

God has said that there will be a seal placed on the foreheads of 144000. Are these people leaders of families who provide for others during the tribulation? I think this is what the seal represents. I am not certain on this but it sure looks like it to me. However, these are somehow restricted to the Jewish tribes.

I agree with your thinking about the 144,000, and their Job. However, there are only 12,000 from the Jewish tribe, and 12,000 from each of the other tribes of Israel. _ Except Dan has none.

Taking the mark is a direct disrespect against God. I love God and his ways way, way, way too much to take the mark for anyone much less myself. I would rather work as a slave then disrespect God. I will do my best to provide for those who I can, but I know I will be limited in what I can do.

I think the people that have the mark of the beast, would die before they would take it. The only way they would take it is to be deceived into taking it. The only way not to be deceived, is to know what the mark is. I also think it might be a test to see if people will search and find what it is, so they can reject it.

I think what this all means is, do you love your lifestyle and money more than God? You will find a way to work, but you will not be able to support your standard of living that you are accustomed to without taking the mark. I know scripture says that even that poor will have to take the mark to buy and sale, but there will be a way to provide some sort of daily staples for you and your family.

I think everybody’s lifestyle is about to change, and I don’t think money will make any difference. --- A denarius is a day’s pay.

Re 6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
Re 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine." TWTaylor

[danield]

Yes the word will be fulfilled completely. And I think this scripture reinforces what I am stating. The bible tells us that it will be a time in which people are persecuted for their faith in God. I think it will grow in scope and magnitude across the globe. Some sections will see persecution before others, and in the end everyone will have the opportunity to either take the mark or deny the mark.

I fully convinced that the Mark will not be brought about by trickery. People will downplay its importance, but it will be a visible concrete action on your part to worship the beast. Why would God condemn anyone if they were tricked into doing something? God is just in everything he does, and saying that someone can lose their soul because they were tricked into something is not how I see God.

Are we not expecting the word to be fulfilled?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Firstfruits

[danield]

I agree with your thinking about the 144,000, and their Job. However, there are only 12,000 from the Jewish tribe, and 12,000 from each of the other tribes of Israel. _ Except Dan has none.

Yea it is sometimes dishearten to have the name of Dan!

I think the people that have the mark of the beast, would die before they would take it. The only way they would take it is to be deceived into taking it. The only way not to be deceived, is to know what the mark is. I also think it might be a test to see if people will search and find what it is, so they can reject it

I just want to reiterate that God is not into deceiving people. Decision on this magnitude will not be brought about by deception. Everything in the bible shows me that God is about truth, justice and love for our fellow man. It is just part of the reasons why I love God so, and in no way does he go out of his way to create a situation so that you can be deceived into losing your soul. God may allow Satan to deceive you about some things, but I am certain he does not have the authority to take someone soul through deception. I think Satan will even try to convince you that he has somehow taken claim on you, but in reality God is the authority in all things.

[T W Taylor]

Hello Danield,

I fully convinced that the Mark will not be brought about by trickery. People will downplay its importance, but it will be a visible concrete action on your part to worship the beast. Why would God condemn anyone if they were tricked into doing something? God is just in everything he does, and saying that someone can lose their soul because they were tricked into something is not how I see God.

Re 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Why would God condemn anyone if they were tricked into doing something?

Because people don’t question why they do things, like,
God gave the people the 4th commandment, the Sabbath, and said it would be a sign between God and His people, -- The Roman Emperor Constantine made it only lawful to rest on Sunday, - People just follow, without asking why, and how did it change?

God gave us the Holy Days. Like Passover, Telling us of things to come. Constantine gave us Easter, We follow Constantine. I don’t know what happened to the other holy days. I also read that Constantine gave us Christmas -- ??? Did Constantine also give us a mark ???? I think Constantine was the 1st beast of Revelation 13, that also gave us his mark.

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
TWTaylor

[danield]

Hello Danield,


Re 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.




Because people don’t question why they do things, like,
God gave the people the 4th commandment, the Sabbath, and said it would be a sign between God and His people, -- The Roman Emperor Constantine made it only lawful to rest on Sunday, - People just follow, without asking why, and how did it change?

God gave us the Holy Days. Like Passover, Telling us of things to come. Constantine gave us Easter, We follow Constantine. I don’t know what happened to the other holy days. I also read that Constantine gave us Christmas -- ??? Did Constantine also give us a mark ???? I think Constantine was the 1st beast of Revelation 13, that also gave us his mark.

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
TWTaylor

I think you are overstating the deception. The beast will try and convince you that he has all the authority from God, and he will do signs and wonders that can only come from God. He will want you to worship him, and he will try and force you to worship him by not allowing you to buy and sell unless you take his mark. He will not come on the scene and impose some super secret tax that gets indirectly sent to a bad guy, and God becomes greatly displeased with you. The deception will come from him trying to make you think he has the authority from God and people will submit to him and take his mark for that very reason. The verse in Rev 19:20 states exactly like I have explained.


People are not condemned because they go to church on Sunday. It is like the Good Samaritan parable. Christ showed us how the Samaritan who was a good man in his heart was going to heaven, and all the others who thought they were practicing proper worship by doing everything correct in the synagogue but stepping over a guy who needed desperate help on their way to the synagogue may not.


By the way the Samaritan in days past was not highly thought of by the Jewish leaders of that day. They did not follow every ritual as most other Jewish men and women did of the time. And it is what makes this parable so vivid to the other Jewish sects of the day.

[My heart's Desire]

Yea it is sometimes dishearten to have the name of Dan!


I just want to reiterate that God is not into deceiving people. Decision on this magnitude will not be brought about by deception. Everything in the bible shows me that God is about truth, justice and love for our fellow man. It is just part of the reasons why I love God so, and in no way does he go out of his way to create a situation so that you can be deceived into losing your soul. God may allow Satan to deceive you about some things, but I am certain he does not have the authority to take someone soul through deception. I think Satan will even try to convince you that he has somehow taken claim on you, but in reality God is the authority in all things.

Although I'd love to agree it is hard to get around the Scripture in 2 Thess 2:11
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false. Or as KJ puts it And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

The difference here though is that the reason God sends the delusion is because in their unrighteousness they did not recieve His love nor the love of the truth so that they would be saved. They had already made their decision.

[newinchrist4now]

Correct me if i am wrong with the following two statements:

1) The Bible says the believers will be spared the wrath of God when He pours out His judgment on the earth, right?

I think on this first point there has been a fundamental flaw in that modern Christians tend to think of "earth" in Scriptures the way we see "earth" in modern times. To those back than "earth" meant the roman empire so we have to keep that in mind to me when we look at scripture.

My 2 cents