Buying & Selling In The End Times

[kay-gee]

It appears to me that IF the Book of Revelations was written to them, then ALL of Revelation applied to them and none of it would apply to us including the coming of Christ/the new earth and heavens etc. But of course, I don't believe that is true. Now, if most of it applies to them and some (at the end) applies to us seems to me dispensationists also can say Revelation does apply to those after the Church is gone and not to us. We can also say Christ's ministry in the Gospel was to Israel, those under the Law until His death, burial and resurrection included Gentiles coming in as well.

I believe it is a matter of rightly dividing the word. I would say that is quite obvious that chapters 20 to the end are not happened yet. But as for the rest...finished! The first 3 chapters make it quite clear who the book was written to. These were actual congregations in exsistance in Asia Minor at that time.

all the best...

[Firstfruits]

All symbolism! Do you actually believe that this supposed great battle is going to be fought on horse back with swords?!!

The battle for the hearts and souls of men started at Calvary. Yes there was darkness. The battle shall continue for the duration of the Christian age, at which time, Christ will take the saved home and bring swift judgement on this earth and the unsaved.

all the best...

If it is all symbolism, what therefore does this represent?

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

This is only on the beast and his kingdom, so do we have nothing that we need to look for today?

Firstfruits

[kay-gee]

FF my friend. It is all symbolism. Don't even try to interpret it. You are unable to with a 21st century mindset.The first century Hebrews would have understood the symbols better than we can ever hope to.

Revelation is snap shots past present and future of the scarlet thread of redemption. It was written to leave us no doubt about the person and the work of Jesus Christ. All is fulfilled and completed in Him. The whole moral of the story (so to speak) is Gods triumph over evil and the salvation of men. It is intended for us to take comfort in that.

I sense that you read way too much into the symbols and it is a source of concern for you. Don't get so hung up on trumpets and vials and all those things. They are only images. God chose (by His infinite wisdom) to reveal to John, the final summation of the Holy scriptures. Think of it as an epilogue. A summation of everything from Genesis onward. He chose to do it through images. Not an unheard of format in Bible. Joseph had dreams where cows ate cows. Where corn ate corn. Jacob saw angels going up and down a ladder. Many instances of revelations through visions and dream through out the Bible. Could not God have explained the concept of clean ad unclean to Peter via an audible voice? He chose to reveal it by animals coming from the sky in a blanket. Does this mean we are to look for animals in blankets coming from the sky? Of course not!

FF I don't know how much you know of astronomy. I know a little. It is impossible for stars to fall to Earth. The smallest stars are thousands times lager than Earth. For the moon to not give it's light means that the sun is gone! The moon only reflects sunlight. If the sun is gone...we are toast! There will be NO life here to witness the other events.
There will be no Battle with horses and swords either. I believe these to be images of the battle between good and evil that started in the garden and continues till the end. We take symbols and weave them into these impossible scenarios. The computer chips and all this other stuff that people read into Rev. IMO they are adding to prophecy and that is a dangerous position.

FF ..I have tried my best to exlain my position. I don't know how successful I've been but I hope I have been of some help to you. Feel free to converse me anytime.

all the best...

[Firstfruits]

FF my friend. It is all symbolism. Don't even try to interpret it. You are unable to with a 21st century mindset.The first century Hebrews would have understood the symbols better than we can ever hope to.

Revelation is snap shots past present and future of the scarlet thread of redemption. It was written to leave us no doubt about the person and the work of Jesus Christ. All is fulfilled and completed in Him. The whole moral of the story (so to speak) is Gods triumph over evil and the salvation of men. It is intended for us to take comfort in that.

I sense that you read way too much into the symbols and it is a source of concern for you. Don't get so hung up on trumpets and vials and all those things. They are only images. God chose (by His infinite wisdom) to reveal to John, the final summation of the Holy scriptures. Think of it as an epilogue. A summation of everything from Genesis onward. He chose to do it through images. Not an unheard of format in Bible. Joseph had dreams where cows ate cows. Where corn ate corn. Jacob saw angels going up and down a ladder. Many instances of revelations through visions and dream through out the Bible. Could not God have explained the concept of clean ad unclean to Peter via an audible voice? He chose to reveal it by animals coming from the sky in a blanket. Does this mean we are to look for animals in blankets coming from the sky? Of course not!

FF I don't know how much you know of astronomy. I know a little. It is impossible for stars to fall to Earth. The smallest stars are thousands times lager than Earth. For the moon to not give it's light means that the sun is gone! The moon only reflects sunlight. If the sun is gone...we are toast! There will be NO life here to witness the other events.
There will be no Battle with horses and swords either. I believe these to be images of the battle between good and evil that started in the garden and continues till the end. We take symbols and weave them into these impossible scenarios. The computer chips and all this other stuff that people read into Rev. IMO they are adding to prophecy and that is a dangerous position.

FF ..I have tried my best to exlain my position. I don't know how successful I've been but I hope I have been of some help to you. Feel free to converse me anytime.

all the best...

If the following are only symbols, then they must represent something. From what I can see they speak of the coming of Christ after the tribulation and the sun and moon being darkened, and the judgment of God on the beast and his kingdom.

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Will there not be a tribulation before Jesus returns?

Will the beast that must come not be punished along with all that follow him.

Are you saying that with all that is written concerning the end time events we cannot know or understand them if they are all sybols.

Firstfruits

[danield]

FF my friend. It is all symbolism. Don't even try to interpret it. You are unable to with a 21st century mindset.The first century Hebrews would have understood the symbols better than we can ever hope to.

Revelation is snap shots past present and future of the scarlet thread of redemption. It was written to leave us no doubt about the person and the work of Jesus Christ. All is fulfilled and completed in Him. The whole moral of the story (so to speak) is Gods triumph over evil and the salvation of men. It is intended for us to take comfort in that.

I sense that you read way too much into the symbols and it is a source of concern for you. Don't get so hung up on trumpets and vials and all those things. They are only images. God chose (by His infinite wisdom) to reveal to John, the final summation of the Holy scriptures. Think of it as an epilogue. A summation of everything from Genesis onward. He chose to do it through images. Not an unheard of format in Bible. Joseph had dreams where cows ate cows. Where corn ate corn. Jacob saw angels going up and down a ladder. Many instances of revelations through visions and dream through out the Bible. Could not God have explained the concept of clean ad unclean to Peter via an audible voice? He chose to reveal it by animals coming from the sky in a blanket. Does this mean we are to look for animals in blankets coming from the sky? Of course not!

FF I don't know how much you know of astronomy. I know a little. It is impossible for stars to fall to Earth. The smallest stars are thousands times lager than Earth. For the moon to not give it's light means that the sun is gone! The moon only reflects sunlight. If the sun is gone...we are toast! There will be NO life here to witness the other events.
There will be no Battle with horses and swords either. I believe these to be images of the battle between good and evil that started in the garden and continues till the end. We take symbols and weave them into these impossible scenarios. The computer chips and all this other stuff that people read into Rev. IMO they are adding to prophecy and that is a dangerous position.

FF ..I have tried my best to exlain my position. I don't know how successful I've been but I hope I have been of some help to you. Feel free to converse me anytime.

all the best...

I disagree Kay. I do respect your feeling towards Revelation, but I fully believe that God has his eye on us always. The symbolism that is echoed in this book was written for a specific purpose and that is to glorify The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Only God could know of things to come and structure an outline of such a book, and it is his plan to bring this to fruition in its own time.

As for as your example of stars falling from the sky as an unimaginable event, in our time you obviously know that we have ballistic missiles that carry payloads capable of recreating the fusion within a star. I could very well outline an extremely plausible scenario of how this may very well fit into our future. There is no need to alarm anyone, but we do need Christ even today more so than ever. I do hope you have a peaceful week and I am sorry that I have alarmed you with my posts.

[My heart's Desire]

As for as your example of stars falling from the sky as an unimaginable event, in our time you obviously know that we have ballistic missiles that carry payloads capable of recreating the fusion within a star. I could very well outline an extremely plausible scenario of how this may very well fit into our future. There is no need to alarm anyone, but we do need Christ even today more so than ever. I do hope you have a peaceful week and I am sorry that I have alarmed you with my posts.

Not only that but stars falling doesn't have to be by natural or man= made forces. Surely the God of Creation, who made the order of the heavens and holds all these in His hands and knows all the stars by their names can just as easily disrupt creation that He has made. And recreate them as well as when He will create a new heavens and a new earth.

[My heart's Desire]

FF my friend. It is all symbolism. Don't even try to interpret it. You are unable to with a 21st century mindset.The first century Hebrews would have understood the symbols better than we can ever hope to.

all the best...

Did they really understand it better than we do since it was still future to them, just as it is still future to us? And to think there will be no battle? That Christ will not return to defeat evil? I'm not understanding your position. Do you see this world continuing as is, indefinately?
I have a hard time believing that God protects His Word through the ages so people will know what He has to say and yet He doesn't expect us to know what it means? If we are not to interpret it why would the early church have chosen to include Revelation in the Bible? Are we to take it only as history?

[My heart's Desire]

Are you saying that with all that is written concerning the end time events we cannot know or understand them if they are all sybols.

Firstfruits

I may be mistaken but it appears kay-gee's position is that one that says the whole Bible has already been fulfilled and is history except for the day when Jesus actually comes back. But I could be wrong of course.

[My heart's Desire]

I believe it is a matter of rightly dividing the word. I would say that is quite obvious that chapters 20 to the end are not happened yet. But as for the rest...finished! The first 3 chapters make it quite clear who the book was written to. These were actual congregations in exsistance in Asia Minor at that time.

all the best...

Ah, I see your point now, but since only the first chapters were written to those churches and afterward the churches are no longer mentioned, how does one know for sure that all the rest between chapter 3 and chapter 20 has happened already?

[Firstfruits]

I may be mistaken but it appears kay-gee's position is that one that says the whole Bible has already been fulfilled and is history except for the day when Jesus actually comes back. But I could be wrong of course.

That is what it appears to me also, which means the tribulation, the trumpets, the vials, the beast and false prophet etc, are all gone. What therfore do we need to be saved from?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[arcadia]

FF my friend. It is all symbolism. Don't even try to interpret it. You are unable to with a 21st century mindset.The first century Hebrews would have understood the symbols better than we can ever hope to.

Joseph had dreams where cows ate cows. Where corn ate corn. Jacob saw angels going up and down a ladder. Many instances of revelations through visions and dream through out the Bible. Could not God have explained the concept of clean ad unclean to Peter via an audible voice? He chose to reveal it by animals coming from the sky in a blanket. Does this mean we are to look for animals in blankets coming from the sky? Of course not!

all the best...

Symbolic of what? Symbols represent literal things of course we should all know this. We are called to interpret it by the power of the Holy Spirit. Did the Pharaoh say "oh well it's only symbols". "We are far too stupid and dull to ever figure it out so forget about it??" No. Cow eating cows meant something important in our natural world. Same with the concept of clean and unclean. Very important.

You can say the book of Revelation is unknowable and that we shouldn't try to figure it out. Revelation is God's word. As such we as God's people should be compelled to figure it out. Ask God to give to wisdom and revelation. All the best.

[kay-gee]

Symbolic of what? Symbols represent literal things of course we should all know this. We are called to interpret it by the power of the Holy Spirit. Did the Pharaoh say "oh well it's only symbols". "We are far too stupid and dull to ever figure it out so forget about it??" No. Cow eating cows meant something important in our natural world. Same with the concept of clean and unclean. Very important.

You can say the book of Revelation is unknowable and that we shouldn't try to figure it out. Revelation is God's word. As such we as God's people should be compelled to figure it out. Ask God to give to wisdom and revelation. All the best.

I agree...well sorta!

Of course symbols mean something. Where I part ways with the popular prophet buffs is in the way the symbols are assigned their meanings. One guy talks about nuclear bombs. One guy says The USA is the beast. One guy says the UBC code at the grocery counter is the beast. Someone else says there will be a temple and a return to animal sacrifice. Some others say now even a 4th temple. On and on it goes. Am I the only one that sees the ridiculous-ness of it all. If the symbols are allowed to speak naturally from the first century context to which they were written, there would be no problems.

all the best...

[My heart's Desire]

I agree...well sorta!

Of course symbols mean something. Where I part ways with the popular prophet buffs is in the way the symbols are assigned their meanings. One guy talks about nuclear bombs. One guy says The USA is the beast. One guy says the UBC code at the grocery counter is the beast. Someone else says there will be a temple and a return to animal sacrifice. Some others say now even a 4th temple. On and on it goes. Am I the only one that sees the ridiculous-ness of it all. If the symbols are allowed to speak naturally from the first century context to which they were written, there would be no problems.

all the best...

I will agree with you on this my friend, though sometimes interesting, I do find alot of the speculation you mention a little over the top as we try to figure out how it may come to be, myself. As far as sacrifice and Temple, the Word does speak of it, but the other stuff? Perhaps we need to be content with the signs Jesus clearly gives instead.

[Firstfruits]

I agree...well sorta!

Of course symbols mean something. Where I part ways with the popular prophet buffs is in the way the symbols are assigned their meanings. One guy talks about nuclear bombs. One guy says The USA is the beast. One guy says the UBC code at the grocery counter is the beast. Someone else says there will be a temple and a return to animal sacrifice. Some others say now even a 4th temple. On and on it goes. Am I the only one that sees the ridiculous-ness of it all. If the symbols are allowed to speak naturally from the first century context to which they were written, there would be no problems.

all the best...

I understand what you are saying here and I agree, and as My Hearts Desire has said we should be content with the signs Jesus has given us.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[arcadia]

To some Jesus will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night. Others will not know the hour but will will know the times and seasons. We are to keep sober and keep watch for signs. Does this mean we jump to conclusions with every newspaper headline? No! Absolutely not. But take these things with a grain of salt. Do your own research. Times are changing (world wide). Symbols are to interpreted by us. It's for us today. All the best!