For those that believe in self defense...

[Brother Mark]

OK, I am not interested in this thread being about pacifism. There are other threads for that.

I have no problem seeing where God consistently used authority in scripture to wield his sword and to protect people using violence if necessary. It's repeatable in the OT and taught in the NT. But I do have a question for those that defend themselves with force.

How do we square that with scriptures that teach us to turn the other cheek? Or if someone takes our coat, to give them our shirt (cloak or whatever it was I can't remember)? I can't find where God defended himself or where Jesus defended himself. I can find where God used authority to defend those under the authority and where he authorized force to do so.

I am not looking for an argument... I am looking for a discussion and some reasoning because I am not totally settled on the idea of self defense.

[VerticalReality]

I think it would probably depend on the circumstances . . .

Is someone trying to argue with you and they decide to slap you across the face in anger? Well, turn the other cheek and let it go . . . get away from the situation.

Is someone trying to break into your home and harm you or your loved ones to the point of death or serious injury? I'd say it's probably okay to defend yourself and your loved ones.

[HisLeast]

I believe the old testament provides enough explicit permission as well as examples for us to conclude that self defense is lawful.

The "take your coat, give your shirt" dialog is about lawsuit, not violence. In this passage I see a compulsion to make every effort to right your wrongs, or at least make peace with those who have a bone to pick with you.
Jesus did not defend himself explicitly, however, I believe the episode at the temple with the money changers is possessed of undeniable violence. Jesus took a scourge to the money changers, and a scourge has one function and one function only: to rend flesh.

The "turn the other cheek" passage is a little more difficult as it depends on what interpretive method you use on the episode (literal, straight forward, or metaphoric). In either case, when combined with the old testament I believe this is a clear case of explicit scriptural contradiction.

Lastly, I believe that while those who "live by the sword shall die by the sword", those who don't live by the sword die by the sword anyway, and in much greater number. I reconcile "turn the other cheek" with a more ancient understanding (let others assert dominance if they wish), and elect to take up the sword should one be wielded against me.

[Vhayes]

Mark, they can have my coat. And my hat, my food, my money, my boots and even my socks. But they cannot have my mental health nor the physical and mental health of my family. Rape or watching someone beaten or killed would be a hard thing to get beyond, harder still if you knew you had the means to prevent it and didn't. At that point, you have become an enabler.

[Brother Mark]

I think it would probably depend on the circumstances . . .

Is someone trying to argue with you and they decide to slap you across the face in anger? Well, turn the other cheek and let it go . . . get away from the situation.

OK, I get that.

Is someone trying to break into your home and harm you or your loved ones to the point of death or serious injury? I'd say it's probably okay to defend yourself and your loved ones.

Well, you are the authority of your family, and IMO, be expected by God to defend them. But what if you are alone and your family isn't home? What then? Is it OK? Why? What scripture would you use to back it up?

[Brother Mark]

Mark, they can have my coat. And my hat, my food, my money, my boots and even my socks. But they cannot have my mental health nor the physical and mental health of my family. Rape or watching someone beaten or killed would be a hard thing to get beyond, harder still if you knew you had the means to prevent it and didn't. At that point, you have become an enabler.

Yea, I get that. I am a believer in getting away. I can find where Jesus didn't submit to abuse. I just can't find where he defended himself with force. As for helping another, doesn't the government give me the authority to do that? So in effect, I can act in their behalf for others? That still seems to me to be an issue of authority.

But what of personal defense? If someone is going to kill you, can we defend ourselves? Or if they want to fight can we fight back? I know we can run. Jesus left when things got violent for him until he was crucified.

[Brother Mark]

I believe the old testament provides enough explicit permission as well as examples for us to conclude that self defense is lawful.

Even in the OT I see it as an issue of authority more than self defense. I am after the idea of David defending himself. He didn't defend himself against Saul. He did get violent in war and when he was in authority and had the right to make those executive decisions. But what of personal self defense?

[Vhayes]

Yea, I get that. I am a believer in getting away. I can find where Jesus didn't submit to abuse. I just can't find where he defended himself with force. As for helping another, doesn't the government give me the authority to do that? So in effect, I can act in their behalf for others? That still seems to me to be an issue of authority.

But what of personal defense? If someone is going to kill you, can we defend ourselves? Or if they want to fight can we fight back? I know we can run. Jesus left when things got violent for him until he was crucified.

maybe this is just me justifying but I don't think so.

How would it promote the gospel fpr me to die at the hands of a crackhead?

[HisLeast]

Even in the OT I see it as an issue of authority more than self defense. I am after the idea of David defending himself. He didn't defend himself against Saul. He did get violent in war and when he was in authority and had the right to make those executive decisions. But what of personal self defense?

David drilled a smooth river stone into the head of Goliath, then cut his head off. After the victory against an opposing foe, David had the bodies removed of their foreskins. I would say David indeed demonstrated some violent episodes.

[Brother Mark]

maybe this is just me justifying but I don't think so.

How would it promote the gospel fpr me to die at the hands of a crackhead?

I don't know. I don't have an answer. That's why I started the thread. But do you have to kill the crack head to survive? I really like the distinction you drew in the other thread about dying for someone to have crack as opposed to dying for your faith. That was good. I am just looking for an answer in this thread. My feelings on it aren't strong enough to argue or feel right about either side right now. I am settled on the authority issue. Not so much on self defense.

[Brother Mark]

David drilled a smooth river stone into the head of Goliath, then cut his head off. After the victory against an opposing foe, David had the bodies removed of their foreskins. I would say David indeed demonstrated some violent episodes.

He was at war and under the authority of the king. That's my point. The soldier kills because government has co-opted him into it's service. In Romans 13, God repeated his wishes that government have the authority to wield his sword.

But what about a personal situation where you are being threatened personally where you are not acting in a position of authority?

[Butch5]

maybe this is just me justifying but I don't think so.

How would it promote the gospel fpr me to die at the hands of a crackhead?

If I may interject, the same way it did for Ignatius to be burn at the stake. He died for following Christ.

[Brother Mark]

If I may interject, the same way it did for Ignatius to be burn at the stake. He died for following Christ.

Not the same. There's a difference between dying for one's faith and dying in an alley because crackhead needs 20 bucks. But I will say this... sometimes it's not about advancing the gospel. Sometimes it's about something else.

[Butch5]

He was at war and under the authority of the king. That's my point. The soldier kills because government has co-opted him into it's service. In Romans 13, God repeated his wishes that government have the authority to wield his sword.

But what about a personal situation where you are being threatened personally where you are not acting in a position of authority?

Mark, what is the difference if you are defending yourself against a crackhead or a soldier from another army? In either case you are defending your life.

[Butch5]

Not the same. There's a difference between dying for one's faith and dying in an alley because crackhead needs 20 bucks. But I will say this... sometimes it's not about advancing the gospel. Sometimes it's about something else.

What is that difference?