GOG- Muslim, Russian, or both?

[seeker_truth]

Church opinion seems to be changing on GOG, Eze.38&39, a little less Russian, a bit more Muslim..
Thoughts...

[Reynolds357]

Could be. I still lean toward Russia. One thing the Church seems to forget is that the Roman empire occupied much territory that is now muslim controlled. Revived Rome may be dominated by Islam..

[markedward]

Or it could be neither... the obsession with Gog being Russia originated during the Cold War. There was no Scriptural support for it, only intentionally falsified etymologies and fear-mongering regarding Communism. And ever since then the connection between Gog and Russia has been perpetuated, still with the fake etymologies but without the Communism.

[kay-gee]

The symbols of Revelation have always been "adjusted" to fit the current events of the day.

all the best...

[markedward]

From David Chilton:

It is interesting – but not surprising – that those who interpret the book “futuristically” always seem to focus on their own era as the subject of the prophecies. Convinced of their own importance, they are unable to think of themselves as living at any other time than the climax of history.

i.e. chronocentricism.

[DurbanDude]

The symbols of Revelation have always been "adjusted" to fit the current events of the day.

all the best...

This is very true. And as a futurist, I believe it is an accurate approach to keep checking future prophecy against current events.

Although I believe the conclusion that Russia is the Gog region is incorrect, there was some scriptural support for the Russia/Gog concept. There is consistency in scripture about the great battle when the northern army attacks Israel (Joel/Ezekiel 38-39/Daniel 11). In some verses this Northern army is described as Gog, and elsewhere it is described as the armies from the "far north" . Geographically, it is Russia that is the country to the furthest north of Israel. Thus based on this logic alone, that the land to the far north of Israel is Gog, those proponents of Russia being Gog do have an argument directly from the scriptures. Furthermore if you look historically of the regions referred to as Meshesh and Tubal, a few maps include Georgia (parts of south western Russia) as being part of Meshesh.

38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Joel 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

Ezekiel 38:6
also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you.
Ezekiel 38:15
You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army.
Ezekiel 39:2
I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel

I believe Gog is Turkey, yet with all the references to this Gog alliance from the north and the east, I suspect Russia will be among the many allies that attack Israel at the end.

I am a committed "futurist" believing each chapter of Ezekiel 38/39, parts of Revelation, Joel 2/3, Zechariah 12/14 all can be argued to be referring to the same future war, often referred to as a northern attack on Israel with southern and eastern allies. The west I believe is allied to Israel.



The little map shows how Russia dominates the area to the far north of Israel (the circle on the map). Other far-northern countries like Sweden/Norway/Denmark/Finland are actually to the north west of Israel, it is only Russia that lies to the far north of Israel. I still believe that Gog represents predominately the Turkish region which, taking into account the limited travel means of the bilbical days would have been the far north of Israel.

[DurbanDude]

Church opinion seems to be changing on GOG, Eze.38&39, a little less Russian, a bit more Muslim..
Thoughts...

Yes, I believe Gog represents the Turkish alliance which includes many Islamic countries, if you look at the biblical lists. I believe the antichrist is western but will have the full support of Islam and the east (the mouth of the lion/the feet of the bear). The Islamic/eastern alliance surprises the antichrist at the end:


Daniel
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

[David Taylor]

Church opinion seems to be changing on GOG, Eze.38&39, a little less Russian, a bit more Muslim..
Thoughts...

Neither.....rather an ancient battle having taken place in ancient times from the North overcoming Israel with chariots and horses and spears and bows and arrows (ancient not modern warfare elements).

Most likely circa pre-B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanes of Assyria...the time-era when Ezekiel actually lived and wrote about.

[Reynolds357]

Neither.....rather an ancient battle having taken place in ancient times from the North overcoming Israel with chariots and horses and spears and bows and arrows (ancient not modern warfare elements).

Most likely circa pre-B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanes of Assyria...the time-era when Ezekiel actually lived and wrote about.

It would be kind of hard for the prophet to describe 21st centruy military equipment.

[FinalTrump]

Neither.....rather an ancient battle having taken place in ancient times from the North overcoming Israel with chariots and horses and spears and bows and arrows (ancient not modern warfare elements).

Most likely circa pre-B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanes of Assyria...the time-era when Ezekiel actually lived and wrote about.

1) Not sure I understand your comments about chariots being ancient weapons, No one from the Bible would have used the terms Tanks, Missile launchers, and AK-47s, they used terms they were familiar with, chariots and horses or military conveyances, bows and arrows, weapons.

2) Antiochus Ephaphes didn't live the same time as Ezekiel or the other Prophets who spoke about this same event. Below are just a few


Antiochus Epiphanies lived 216-164 BC

Ezekiel prophesied; about 612 BC

Zechariah (also speaks of this time) prophesied about 520 BC

Joel is about 800 BC

Zephaniah prophesied about 659 BC


I do believe that Gog is from Russia and on their way down they gather others, including Turkey

Scofield: (see quote below) first published in 1909, he died in 1921, which is 24 years before the Cold War began.

Gog

That the primary reference is to the northern (European) powers, headed up by Russia, all agree. The whole passage should be read in connection with (Zec_12:1-4); (Zec_14:1-9); (Mat_24:14-30); (Rev_14:14-20); (Rev_19:17-21); "gog" is the prince, "Magog," his land. The reference to Meshech and Tubal (Moscow and Tobolsk) is a clear mark of identification. Russia and the northern powers have been the latest persecutors of dispersed Israel, and it is congruous both with divine justice and with the covenants (for example

(See Scofield) - (Gen_15:18).
(See Scofield) - (Deu_30:3).

that destruction should fall at the climax of the last mad attempt to exterminate the remnant of Israel in Jerusalem. The whole prophecy belongs to the yet future "day of Jehovah"; (Isa_2:10-22); (Rev_19:11-21) and to the battle of Armageddon (Rev_16:14).

Almost forgot to answer the original question: Both. Much of what comprised Russia is Muslim: Georgia and all the "stans"

[markedward]

It would be kind of hard for the prophet to describe 21st centruy military equipment.

Not sure I understand your comments about chariots being ancient weapons, No one from the Bible would have used the terms Tanks, Missile launchers, and AK-47s, they used terms they were familiar with, chariots and horses or military conveyances, bows and arrows, weapons.

It would also be incredibly misleading for God to have a prophet use terms like "bow and arrow" and "chariots" to describe "machine guns" and "tanks". You have to incredibly underestimate the intelligence of Ezekiel to seriously believe he couldn't tell the difference between a stick with a string tied to it and a shiny contraption with miniature barrels sticking out the front, or that he couldn't tell the difference between a horse with a wheeled-box and a metal-armored building on wheels.

You seriously believe that God would have Ezekiel give a series of prophecies that were completely inaccessible to his Covenant people for over 2500 years?

Antiochus Ephaphes didn't live the same time as Ezekiel or the other Prophets who spoke about this same event. Below are just a few

David Taylor didn't say that Antiochus IV Epiphanes lived at "the same time" as Ezekiel. He said he lived in the same "time-era".

Per David Taylor's statement: Ezekiel's prophecies detail first the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon and then the return of the Jewish nation in the 6th-century BC, and following their return from exile, the later oppression they would receive from Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the 2nd-century BC. This is far more directly relevant to Ezekiel's contemporaries, especially considering Daniel prophesied about the exact same things in his book. It also doesn't require any linguistic gyrations in order to twist "bows and arrows" and "chariots" into "machine guns" and "tanks".

As opposed to prophecies dealing with the Babylonian exile and then skipping ahead several thousand years without any indication in the text.

[FinalTrump]

[QUOTE]

It would also be incredibly misleading for God to have a prophet use terms like "bow and arrow" and "chariots" to describe "machine guns" and "tanks". You have to incredibly underestimate the intelligence of Ezekiel to seriously believe he couldn't tell the difference between a stick with a string tied to it and a shiny contraption with miniature barrels sticking out the front, or that he couldn't tell the difference between a horse with a wheeled-box and a metal-armored building on wheels.

I will have to seriously have to Chide the Prophet Ezekiel for not using the proper terms of assault rifle and AK-47 to make his prophecy so clear, that hearing we can hear and seeing we can understand. He should not have spoken in dark sayings like our Lord, because then everyone could understand it and be converted. He used more descriptions in the first chapter to describe the throne scene and now everyone thinks he is talking about a space ship.

You seriously believe that God would have Ezekiel give a series of prophecies that were completely inaccessible to his Covenant people for over 2500 years?

I have already given an abundance of examples of this in the scripture. If you have replied to that post in that thread (which I cannot remember now), please point me to it. God clearly has a pattern of giving prophecies that are far reaching, so why should this be any different?

David Taylor didn't say that Antiochus IV Epiphanes lived at "the same time" as Ezekiel. He said he lived in the same "time-era".

I don't understand this statement. How long is a "time-era"? I do not consider 400 years apart the same era, so please explain.

The Bible is a Living Word, for all his Saints from the beginning of the Gospel age to the Last, He promised not to leave us in darkness on what was coming. If you believe that the Bible is a mere history book then God has left us in darkness.

[markedward]

I will have to seriously have to Chide the Prophet Ezekiel for not using the proper terms of assault rifle and AK-47 to make his prophecy so clear, that hearing we can hear and seeing we can understand. He should not have spoken in dark sayings like our Lord, because then everyone could understand it and be converted. He used more descriptions in the first chapter to describe the throne scene and now everyone thinks he is talking about a space ship.

So how is this any different? You're "chiding" others for interpreting the cherubim as "spaceships", yet it's okay for you to turn "bows and arrows" and "chariots" into "machine guns" and "tanks"? How is what you're doing okay, but what others do is nonsense? Either way, someone is taking what Ezekiel described and turning it into something its not.

This has nothing to do with Ezekiel "not using the proper terms". This has to do with him using specific terms at all. He may have lived in the distant past, but he wasn't stupid. A bow looks nothing like a gun, and a horse looks nothing like a tank. It's absurd to believe that Ezekiel saw a machine gun and thought to himself, "Man, that really shiny, bulky metal contraption sure does look like a stick with a string tied to it. I think I'll call it a 'bow'. And that! A marvelous war machine covered in plates of metal, with a large tube coming out of the front of it. It looks just like a horse pulling a chariot! I think I'll just call these things a "bow" and a chariot", because everyone's going to know what I'm talking about when I use a word that refers to something completely distinct from what I'm actually seeing! This won't cause any confusion at all, because God sure isn't the God of confusion!"

I don't understand this statement. How long is a "time-era"? I do not consider 400 years apart the same era, so please explain.

That's because we're living in the 21st-century, where technology undergoes drastic changes every five to ten years. Now, nevermind the fact that "time-era" is a subjective term and David Taylor's usage of the term is perfectly applicable. But between the 6th-century BC and the 2nd-century BC, the only changes going on in the world were kingdoms conquering other kingdoms. And, from a Scriptural perspective, yes, the time of the return from Babylon and the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes were in the same "era"; it was the 6th-century BC up to the 1st-century BC that the Covenant people were living without an independent kingdom of their own. It is what we would call the "post-exilic period".

If you believe that the Bible is a mere history book then God has left us in darkness.

Nowhere did I suggest that I believe "the Bible is a mere history". Keep your words out of my mouth.

[FinalTrump]

If you were Ezekiel and you saw this vision, how would you convey that vision to your hearers (because we know he told his people the vision--because there is a dual application, but mostly prophetic) so that they could understand the intent of the message without getting lost in adjectives which will distract from the goal of the message?

Nowhere did I suggest that I believe "the Bible is a mere history". Keep your words out of my mouth.

I said "if" There is a difference in a direct charge, which I did not make. If I have offended you, please accept my appology

I would like to know from you, what you do see as future, what we as Christians can expect, and what God has informed us is stil future.

Sincerely

[markedward]

If you were Ezekiel and you saw this vision, how would you convey that vision to your hearers (because we know he told his people the vision--because there is a dual application, but mostly prophetic) so that they could understand the intent of the message without getting lost in adjectives which will distract from the goal of the message?

If it was me, personally, writing about what I saw... I sure wouldn't use nouns that people know the definition of and apply them to things with have no semblance of the nouns I'm using. Meaning, if I had no idea what a gun was, and I saw one for the first time, I know for a fact I would never consider that it looked like a "bow". They have no physical comparisons, the only relation they have is "shooting" things, but the manner in which this is done still isn't identifiable between the two. And if I had no idea what a tank was, and I saw one for the first time, I would never consider that it resembled a horse pulling a wooden box on wheels. There is nothing comparable between the two in physical appearance, and neither are their functions even remotely similar.

I understand your question, but the fact of the matter is that Ezekiel gives zero indication that he is seeing 21st-century machine of war. Since I believe Ezekiel saw bows and chariots, and he referred to bows and chariots, there's no point in me answering the question, because if I saw what Ezekiel saw, I would have written what he wrote. Bows. Chariots.

I would like to know from you, what you do see as future, what we as Christians can expect, and what God has informed us is stil future.

The release of Satan from his binding. The great deception of the nations. The gathering of the nations (symbolically named Gog and Magog; distinct from Ezekiel's Gog and Magog) against God's faithful followers. The coming of Christ. The resurrection of the dead. The judgment of all. The everlasting age of righteousness.