Neither Jew Nor Gentile
With all you have said, those that went through the tribulation did not reign with Christ during the millenium in heaven, as it is written they do. Satan is still the God of this world, along with the rulers of darkness. Satan still roams the earth.Originally Posted by kay-gee
1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
All is not fulfilled.
When is Satan destoyed?
Firstfruits
Posting Freak
Does "soon" make you afraid? It gives me comfort. Regardless, according to the post you make below this one,
all has been accomplished as M has said in the 1st century,, except for His Return. Either it has or has not.
I have a Blog. Please visit!
My Blog http://bibleforums.org/forum/blog.php?b=537
Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life!
Formerly moonglow
Firstfruits you aren't understanding what Partial perterism is or you wouldn't have posted this. I know markedward and myself and others have tried to explain it to you..answered your questions but you seem to just want to debate without understanding what we are saying in the first place. You can't really even form a solid argument if you don't understand our views to start with and you aren't. We can't even debate you because we spend all our time just re-explaining our views to start with.
Image being on a debate team in school...the topic is global warming...one side has to debate its true and the other side has to debate it isn't. If you are put on the side that says their is no global warming you have to first know what the other side is going to present so you can counter there information and stats. If you have no idea what they might present and don't care, just gather up only the information you are interested in you won't be able to answer or debate them when they present their side. You will keep presenting information that has nothing to do with what they might be talking about. For instance if they say their is evidences for glaciers melting...but you only looked up to see if hurricanes have increased or not, you won't be able to refute them and will lose the debate.
No one said satan isn't still causing problems..the binding of satan only means he cannot stop the spreading of the gospel message. We have explained this many times. No one said satan had been destroyed yet either. Third, We see it as we ARE reigning with Christ now..those that have died and those living now as the bible tells us Christ lives in us.
Romans 8
10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you.
That wasn't meant to be literally sitting next to Jesus on one extremely long throne and literally reigning. That doesn't even make sense...what would we reign over anyway? I was taught this view too growing up. Then I got to thinking about it..if everything is made anew..all sin is gone, which means all sinners are gone..what exactly would we reign over? Plants? trees?
Satan will be destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ for once and all.
God bless
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
So, what about the judgment (Rev 20:11-15) and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth? You don't believe those things are fulfilled, right? Yet what you're saying here would apply to the entire book, wouldn't it? Yet, even you don't believe that. Only a full preterist would believe that. So, I don't understand why a partial preterist would try to make this particular argument.
The same would go for this statement:Revelation 20 & 21 are part of the prophecies of the book, right? Yet you agree that they were not fulfilled soon after the book was written. So, if those statements in chapters 1 and 22 don't apply to Rev 20-21 in terms of everything described there as happening soon after the book was written, how do you determine that those verses are saying that all of Rev 4-19 was going to happen soon after the book was written?
Good bye.
You're asking, "How can 'soon' be applied to chapters 1-19, but not 20-22?", correct? Perhaps I did not word it as well as I could have. Rather than saying "The book was going to be fulfilled in John's near future", it would be more accurate to say "The book was going to begin to be fulfilled in John's near future". And based upon historical and Scriptural context, partial preterism comes to the conclusion that the majority of the prophecies (1-19) were fulfilled in John's near future, while the last chapters (20-22) extend beyond the scope of John's near future because of the "thousand years".
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Yes.
Perhaps, but I could have missed something, too.Perhaps I did not word it as well as I could have.
Okay, now that makes more sense. Actually, the book isn't only about future things. It includes things that occurred before the book was written, including the birth of Christ and His ascension (Rev. 12:4-5).Rather than saying "The book was going to be fulfilled in John's near future", it would be more accurate to say "The book was going to begin to be fulfilled in John's near future".
The book is about things that happened or that applied before it was written, were happening or that applied at the time it was written and that would happen and would apply from then on.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Right. That's something I already knew regarding partial preterism, but based on the way the two items that I pointed out were worded, it gave the impression that the entire book was to be fulfilled soon after the book was written, so I couldn't help but question why a partial preterist would use those arguments. Thanks for the clarification.And based upon historical and Scriptural context, partial preterism comes to the conclusion that the majority of the prophecies (1-19) were fulfilled in John's near future, while the last chapters (20-22) extend beyond the scope of John's near future because of the "thousand years".
Good bye.
Right, I agree.Okay, now that makes more sense. Actually, the book isn't only about future things. It includes things that occurred before the book was written, including the birth of Christ and His ascension (Rev. 12:4-5).
You're quite welcome.Thanks for the clarification.
Neither Jew Nor Gentile
With regards to the following, do we agree that Satan is not yet cast into the lake of fire?
Chapter 20: John sees Satan bound up so that he could not deceive the nations, a symbolic representation of the power of Christ's sacrifice over Satan's deception. The "first resurrection" refers to the resurrection of Jesus Christ "the firstfruits". [1 Corinthians 15.20] Hence, the righteous dead (Rev. 14.13: "blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on") are described as "sharing" in Christ's resurrection and rule, in perfect correspondence to Paul's statements in his letters. [1 Corinthians 15.22; Ephesians 2.6; Colossians 2.12-13] The "thousand years" are symbolic of the era of the Church, and the beginning of the "thousand years" corresponds to the Kingdom of God being established upon the world [Luke 21.31-32; Revelation 11.15], marked by the destruction of apostate Israel. [Matthew 21.33-46] The number 1000 is a symbolic numeral for "completion". Thus, when the "thousand years" come to their end, the plan of God will be brought to completion. Satan will be released from his binding, bringing about a great deception. The enemies of the world (symbolized as "Gog and Magog") will attempt to destroy the Church (symbolized as "God's holy city"), but they will be prevented by the Second Coming of Christ. Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Christ will sit upon his throne, and he will bring about the resurrection of the dead. All of mankind (and angels) will be judged. John sees the wicked cast into the lake of fire. Finally, John sees Death itself destroyed by Christ. After the resurrection, the final judgment, and the defeat of Death, Christ delivers the Kingdom of God up to the Father in order for it to be consummated. [1 Corinthians 15.23-28,54-55]
Death is not yet cast into the lake of fire. The final judgment is not yet come. The second coming of Christ is yet to come at which time Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
Is this agreed so far?
Firstfruits
μαθητής
Hey Mark. I am coming closer and closer to holding to the Preterist's interpretation of Revelation, but get confused when I reach 19:11-21. Does the Preterist believe that this passage has already happened, or is this when John starts seeing things even in our future? Thanks buddy. [Not that your answer will 'make or break' my transition. For example, Joel says two or three times that 'the Day of the LORD is near', and though Babylon came upon Judah relatively soon after he wrote his prophecy, the Spirit being poured out and (possibly) the judgment of all the nations did not.]
analyze. synthesize. repeat.
*It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*
Neither Jew Nor Gentile
As Satan is not yet destroyed and is not destroyed until The second coming of Christ no matter what I believe we cannot say that Revelation is fulfilled.
Firstfruits
Good bye.
The general interpretation that I accept on Revelation 19.11-21 is that it is intentionally reminiscent of the rider of the white horse (the first seal) of chapter 6. You and I have had a discussion regarding the white horse, I think. Based on the imagery involved, I believe the rider of the white horse is the outgoing of the gospel in first-century Judea, and the Roman Empire. Revelation 19.11-21 is expressing a similar case. Rather than depicting a single unidentified rider on a white horse, we are shown many white horses, led by Christ himself. The sword of Christ's mouth is seen conquering all of his enemies (including the beast and the false prophet), as the armies of Christ charge out into the world. This, I believe, is depicting the outgoing of Christ's gospel into the world, overcoming any and all enemies, who will inevitably be destroyed for resisting Christ's messengers (and hence, Christ himself). Basically, I believe it is a symbolic image, chronologically parallel to the "thousand years".
I offer the following from David Chilton, who I think words the thought better than I do:
St. John sees a white horse, the symbol of Christ’s victory and dominion (6:2; cf. 14:14). It is important for the proper understanding of this passage to note that the One sitting upon it is called Faithful and True: Christ rides forth to victory in His character as “the faithful and true Witness” (3:14), as “the Word of God” (19:13). St. John is not describing the Second Coming at the end of the world. He is describing the progress of the Gospel throughout the world, the universal proclamation of the message of salvation, which follows the First Advent of Christ.
...
But Christ is not alone in this victory. He is followed by the armies that are in heaven, “the called and chosen and faithful” who are with Him in battle (17:14). Again we must remember that from the perspective of the New Testament, the Church is “in heaven”: We are God’s tabernacle in heaven (7:15; 12:12; 13:6), we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6), we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels in festal assembly, and to the Church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven (Heb. 12:22-23). The armies are composed of Christians (it is possible that angels are in view here as well), riding on white horses with their Lord in His aggressive and triumphant campaign through the earth, bringing the Word of God to the world. Because the armies of heaven are the Bride, they are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
... the rest of the Beasts’ followers –the kings of the earth — are killed with the sword that came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse. The message of the Gospel, the Wordsword of the Spirit, goes out from Christ’s mouth and destroys His enemies by converting them, piercing them to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, judging the thoughts and intentions of their hearts. The Beasts are doubly losers: Not only are they defeated, but the very nations that they led in battle against Christ are conquered by His victorious Word.
Formerly moonglow
No one said it was all fulfilled...markedward never ever said this view point says it all fulfilled.
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Good bye.
Every partial preterist agrees, including myself.
I live here!
Greetings Mark,
Thank you for presenting the internal evidence found in Revelation to support the pp doctrine. I’ve come to believe that partial preterism is response to amills whose view Scripture, especially the Olivet Discourse, as pertaining to far future events. The pp, rightly so, tells us it is ridiculous that one could read the words of Christ speaking to His first disciples, and conclude His words are not meant for them, but are for Christians living at the very end of time. I just have to wonder if pp in their effort to show Christ was speaking to a literal people, living in the first century about things that would effect them personally have inadvertently made prophecy affecting Christians of all times for only those first century Christian Jews?
I agree with you the “en tachos” literally means quickly, + shortly, + speedily. But then you conclude that “John was telling his original readers that the fulfillment of the books was going to come upon them within a brief amount of time”. But the same word “en tachos” is found in Ro 16:20, Paul telling the saints that God will bruise Satan under their feet “en tachos”. I don’t think you would conclude that this was fulfilled within the life times of those first century saints? Or in Lu 18:8 when God speaks of avenging His elect “en tachos”.
Ro*16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
I’m making this point to show what “must shortly/soon come to pass” was not pointing to 70 AD. Neither 70 AD, nor some 1900 years pertain to things that will come quickly, shortly, speedily. John was speaking of the coming of the Kingdom of God through the testimony of Jesus Christ, the gospel of our salvation. When John speaks of the time being “near” or “at hand”, like you have said it cannot imply a distant (about 40 years or 1900 years) fulfillment. The thing that was “near/at hand” was the Kingdom of God through the proclamation of the Gospel.
This is why John was told “Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book”, because it was through This Book, the Word of God, the message of salvation, that all of God’s people would enter into His Kingdom. Again, something that is “near/at hand” refers to something that will happen quickly, shortly, speedily, but not something that will not happen for almost 40 years or almost 2000 years later. Neither 40 years nor 2000 years correspond to quickly, shortly, speedily.
I agree the letters John was instructed to write pertained not only to those first century saints in those churches, but also are written as examples and encouragement, exhortation, as well as warnings to saints throughout redemptive history.
The word “tachu” translated “come quickly/soon” is not inferring a space of time, but surprise or suddenly, without warning. John is showing us the unexpected nature of His coming, and issuing a warning that we should be watching and doing until He comes. He is saying “hold fast or I will come suddenly/unexpectedly when you are neither watching or waiting.”
I will not repeat what I have already said regarding “this generation”, except to ask you to consider what I have already said. There are two generations that Christ speaks of “this generation” wherein is evil and death and “that generation” to come, wherein dwelleth only righteousness. What was fulfilled in the lifetimes of the first apostles? The first advent of Christ, His victory over Satan and death, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God through the proclamation of the Gospel.
The firstfruits of God and the Lamb are explicitly OT saints.
You are assuming that the number of the beast is the number of “A” man. However there is discrepancy over this translation. Some suggest the proper translation should be “it is the number of mankind”.
Again Mark, I am not trying to disprove partial preterism In fact I find I am in greater agreement with how the pp interpret passages like the Olivet Discourse than I am with amill. However for now I’m afraid I still cannot fully support pp. But I would like to again thank you very much for your thorough explanation of the pp doctrine.
Many Blessings,
RW
Neither Jew Nor Gentile
Would you also agree then that there is Revelation yet to come?
Firstfruits
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks