Know God vs. Know about God - the "isms" problem

[Brother Mark]

How does one know they are experiencing Christianity?

Through practice.

Heb 5:14
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
NASB

It is through knowledge and experiencing. I am not coming against knowledge. I am coming against knowledge without experience. We need both!

Hos 4:6
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
NASB

We need to experience God because unless we experience him, what we know is almost useless.

[VerticalReality]

How does one know they are experiencing Christianity?

I think it is the same as any other intimate relationship qualifier. I can know and experience a relationship with my wife by drawing close to her . . . and her reciprocate that affection. I hear her . . . I listen to her. I spend time with her, and I get to know within my heart what she is all about.

When I do those things with my spouse, I will also reap observable fruit from that as well. Our bond will grow stronger. Our love will grow stronger. Our trust for one another will grow more toward being complete. This relationship is in many ways the same with God.

[Slug1]

Through practice.

Heb 5:14
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
NASB

It is through knowledge and experiencing. I am not coming against knowledge. I am coming against knowledge without experience. We need both!

Hos 4:6
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
NASB

We need to experience God because unless we experience him, what we know is almost useless.

When the Lord began to lead me to be a part of a deliverence ministry I looked at the person who was the leader of this ministry and asked for this person to teach me all they learned... the answer they gave me, "I didn't learn any of this, I experienced it and followed what the Holy Spirit led me to do."

We do, do classes but until you experience it, all the learning is just that... learning. Until you experience a demon and find yourself saying words that just flow from you, or you find yourself praising God while another in the group is led to pray against the demon. Learning isn't gonna help as much because if you do it per a learned script, not all are the same and we're talking about a spiritual being so being led in the Spirit is what is doing the battle, we're just vessels.

Yeah, being taught and experiencing are two different things.

I was all for God many years of my life but done in a way I was taught and also in a way that made me comfortable which was also due to making those teaching me happy because I was following the doctrine, theology, and religion that they followed. There is a deep meaning to the phase, "out of your comfort zone" because God works the way He works, not the way that makes us comfortable, He doesn't follow our theology, doesn't follow our doctrine, doesn't follow our religion. In many cases, also not in a way that makes those around us comfortable if they're not used to operating by the leading of the Holy Spirit or it goes against any theology, doctrine, or religion that they are following.

I was led 940 something miles to a city south of me in 2009, to do some and/or be present during very specific prayers and missions for God dealing with territorial spiritual warfare. I was also present in various services to "learn" as well. I can always give a testimony of the details but right now there is no need unless I want to deal with those who will attack the testimony. The Lord worked in a mighty way and I "experienced" a new way to be led as each day the Lord revealed what I was to do. On the way down there I only knew I was to be there and when I prayed for what to do, once there... nothing. The next morning I woke up and as I prayed the Lord told me what was to be done. Each day was like that.

Anyway, learning helps and I need to learn much as we all do but experiencing can be hindered by filtering our relationship with Jesus ONLY through what we are taught by man.

[theBelovedDisciple]

How does one know they are experiencing Christianity?

Not to sound obtuse or arrogant.. but a person must be Born Again from Above... and if you are Genuinely Born AGain from above..

You will 'know' you are Experiencing Chrisitianity.. True Genuine Chrisitanity.. because the Eternal One lives in you and with you... Jesus, the Bible becomes Alive.. and His Life is lived thru you... you have 'new life'.. your soul and spirit will 'know' it..

In Jesus's Day you had the religious scholars, the Sanhederin, those religious elite who searched the Scriptures daily.. believing they had Eternal Life... yet they rejected the Messiah.. they saw and beheld their Redeemer.. Jesus Christ God manifest in the flesh.. yet they did not acknowledge or 'know' Him.... they saw Him and even interacted with Him... they experienced Him without the Spirit of the Living God giving them illumination to who He really was..

now the publicans, prostitutes, tax collectors, the comman folk.. they 'knew' who He was... even His Closest Disciples knew He was the Christ... this abliity to 'know' Him... was due to the Father Revealing that to them.. thru the Eternal Spirit..

It is the Father who Reveals these things to His Children.. access to HIm being made by Jesus Himself thru the ETernal Spirit..

and people Experience the True Lviing God because its the Father's Will that they 'know' Him... and HIs Son Jesus the Christ whom He sent...

listen to Jesus' Words here.. it doesnt get any more clearer than this..

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].


alot of people have 'knowledge of God'... even Jesus HImself...

yet they DO NOT KNOW HIM..... alot of head knowledge driven by the flesh.... but their 'hearts' are far from Him....

the deepest chasm in human history as been that distance between the head and heart... short by measuring distance...

but in the spiritual realm.. its long deep and dark.. and only God Himself can 'bridge that'.. and open up a way from the head to the heart.. so that Genuine Chrisitianity becomes Real and Alive... this not 'religion'.. but a Personal Relationship with the Redeemer of Isreal... Acitive and Alive on a daily Basis.. and ETERNAL..

[HisLeast]

Not to sound obtuse or arrogant.. but a person must be Born Again from Above... and if you are Genuinely Born AGain from above..

You will 'know' you are Experiencing Chrisitianity.. True Genuine Chrisitanity.. because the Eternal One lives in you and with you... Jesus, the Bible becomes Alive.. and His Life is lived thru you... you have 'new life'.. your soul and spirit will 'know' it..

Fine. How will one's soul and spirit "know" it?

[Athanasius]

But even knowing that way is not the same as experiencing it. For instance, one can know and be spirit led in knowing about desert experiences. But until he walks through it himself, and allows God to use it to work deep in the soul, it won't work it's complete work. One needs to experience christianity as much as know about it.

Absolutely .

[Slug1]

Fine. How will one's soul and spirit "know" it?

For me to answer this I have to use myself as an example.

Let me sum up many years of my life in a sentence... I believed in God all my life and began a relationship with God as I rededicated myself to Jesus about 16 years ago. Then I began to express my relationship by following what I was told to do at church.

OK, present day... What I know now due to all this "learning" is that I wasn't experiencing God. I wasn't being "fed" anything that filled my spirit and my soul within me. Why? It's because religion, theology, doctrine isn't the Bread and Water that is everlasting. Through Jesus and Jesus only, you will be filled and not go hungry. Read John chapter 6 (I think)

I fed off of all the religion, all the doctrine, and all the theology put in my way and I learned stuff I have no idea what it is now? What "ism" was all this, I have no idea now because I was told this is how to follow God, this is what the Bible means and whatever ism all this learing was, I don't know. It's not like a pastor will ever say, I believe Calvinism or Arminism, or any ism and then teach it under such a title. Well, in my experience I've never seen a pastor do this.

Now, the pastor I have now is also aware of all the ism's in life, he is an educated man (6 year degree), certified, ordained and all that. All his certs and deplomas collect dust in a closet somewhere and he does have his ordination hangin' on a corner wall but it's not thought about any more and in his words... "that just means, man allows me because we do have laws to follow", or something like that. It's really God who enables him, gives him the words to preach, guides him to minister and how to minister because how can you be taught to minister to all a pastor will ever need to minsiter to...

Anyway, went off in lala land again

How do I "know it" now... when I am filled, fed by a sermon given by the Holy Spirit... the pastor is nothing but a vessel who's being used, my body physically reacts. My heart feels like it's bursting from my chest, I cry, I laugh, I praise, I worship and it's not me (physically). The Holy Spirit will ALLOW you to understand what you're experiencing. To put it into words is hard besides descriptions that can be testified. Have you ever looked in a direction and "knew" you were looking North even though there is absolutly nothing to allow you to know the direction you are facing is North? Then when you pull a compass out you find you are facing North!!

How did you "know" it was North?

We all know about the description of a hole or space in our heart that can only be filled with God. That we do a ton of stuff in life but never "feel" fulfilled. Then when we encounter God and begin to allow the filling of that hole/space we find what was missing. The moment a person experiences God this way it is Him, thus that initial feeling but then we take over and begin to fill it more with what "we" understand through religion, doctrines that cater to us, and theologies we like. More of this and us in that hole/space and less and less room for God to occupy.

Until a day is reached where God can't fit in that space or occupies such a small amount of that space that He can't be felt or heard... is this how you feel Hisleast?

[notuptome]

No man can know God or God's will apart from a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. One must have the Holy Spirit before he can be led of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid which is Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth but which the Holy Spirit teacheth comparing spiritual things with spiritual. We know that 1 Cor 2:14-16 teaches we must be saved before we can recieve the things God has for us to learn. We do not simply cast ourselves adrift and expect the Holy Spirit to make something from our folly. The apostles were busy about the work of discipling those who trusted Christ in the word of God. Too many "isms" have had their genesis in rejecting sound doctrine and seeking new and unconvential leading of the Holy Spirit which more often than not is not God's Spirit leading but the leading of the spirit of this world. We try and test the spirits against the word of God to see if they are genuine or counterfeit.

If I came to you and said God is leading me through the Holy Spirit to perform open heart surgery on you do you think you would be open to the idea? Or would you say I don't need open heart surgery I'm in perfect health or what training do you have in open heart surgery? Just because i say the Holy Spirit has told me to do so does not make it true. It may be extra-biblical and not of God. So only be going back to the word of God can we establish the veracity of the statement or action purposed.

When we are born again we are babes inChrist and we must feed on the word of God to grow and mature. Had Eve relied on Gods word and not used the experience method of learning we would not be in the place we are today. God gave us His word that we might know of Him. the Holy spirits job is to teach us of God through the word. When Jesus was on the earth He taught the apostles and disciples the word of God. Jesus opened the truths of the OT to the eyes of all who heard Him preach. The Holy Spirit is not more important than Jesus Christ. Lift up Jesus and men will be drawn to Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[newinchrist4now]

We all come to the table with an "ism", individualism. We all say the HS guides us but we all come up with differences, so we can never get away from isms for when you try to get away from one you'll run right into another one. Ism's are part of life

[notuptome]

Let me sum up many years of my life in a sentence... I believed in God all my life and began a relationship with God as I rededicated myself to Jesus about 16 years ago. Then I began to express my relationship by following what I was told to do at church.

I can understand why you struggle. When exactly did you receive Christ as your personal Saviour?

Deut 19:14 speaks about landmarks. These were established to mark certain important events. We are told not to remove our landmarks because they are important. We need to have them to remember and to refresh our memories. Salvation is the most important landmark we establish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Slug1]

I can understand why you struggle. When exactly did you receive Christ as your personal Saviour?

Deut 19:14 speaks about landmarks. These were established to mark certain important events. We are told not to remove our landmarks because they are important. We need to have them to remember and to refresh our memories. Salvation is the most important landmark we establish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

About 16 years ago when I accepted Christ as my Savior as it took the ministering of CPL Bush to explain and get it through my head it's more then just saying I believe their is God. I know exactly what you mean about God drawing one to Him. If you read my testimony of healing in my signature, it's all in there.

[markedward]

The OP draws the conclusion that believing in an "ism" means that the person is somehow not being guided by the Holy Spirit. There's nothing inherently wrong with the usage of "ism" labels; all an "ism" is, is a one-word label to describe a particular belief. Instead of saying "Well, I believe (insert three paragraphs here)", a person can simply say, "Well, I believe (blank)ism." The dichotomy that the OP tries to make between (a) believing in an "ism" and (b) following the Holy Spirit is completely non-existent. If you don't want to use an "ism" word to summarily describe what you believe, that's totally fine. But to actually claim that people are not following the Holy Spirit just because they used an "ism" word to describe themselves is judgmental nonsense.

"You believe in an 'ism'? Then you're not really following God, you're following an 'ism' instead!"

Why a person would rather know "about" God through another person's "theology" and not "KNOW GOD" as led by ONLY the Holy Spirit.

And this. This is absurd. Who are you to pretend you know that someone is "following another person's theology and not knowing God"? I believe in several "isms"... but where do you have the right to claim that I'm not "knowing God"? What evidence to you have to base your claim upon that I'm following "another person's theology" as opposed to one I studied myself? What gives you the authority to claim that believing in an "ism" equates to "not knowing God"? You don't know how I pray, so you have absolutely zero right to judge me and claim I'm not following the Holy Spirit just because I use an "ism" word to describe myself. You don't know what my methods of study are, so you have no right to look down upon me as "following another person's theology".

Put simply: Your claim that because I use an "ism" word to describe myself I must not pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance, I must not "know God", and I must be some dupe blindly following "another person's theology", is all a load of nonsense. You have no room to judge me, or anyone else on this basis.

[Slug1]

Something I read tonight is interesting concerning this thread and how it's moving. Sure we learn from others, we can learn from other's experiences (testimonies) but until we experience for ourselves, what is a learning "experience"? Hands on, a classroom, a sermon, a book, an ism, combination of any... what about "knowing" only through the Holy Spirit?

John 7:15 And the Jews marveled, saying, “How does this Man know letters, having never studied?” 16 Jesus[c] answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

So a new question will come from this... if Jesus tells us that anyone who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, then when people cling to and indoctrinate themselves to those who spoke from themselves... who's glory are these people seeking?

Are those who only seek God, through Jesus as led by the Holy Spirit and nothing else... wrong?

[Dani H]

John 17

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

[blessedmommyuv3]

John 17

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Beautiful verse.
Amen.
That is the foundation for the reformed faith--the glory of God.
We were created for His glory, we were redeemed for His glory.
Jesus' atoning death on the cross was the finished work; fully sufficient for our salvation.
It is God's grace alone which saves.


In Christ,
Jen