Know God vs. Know about God - the "isms" problem

[HisLeast]

Did the Bereans learn and validate via an experience with the holy spirit? According to Acts, they heard the apostle's teaching then immediately started poring over the word for validation.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

[Brother Mark]

Did the Bereans learn and validate via an experience with the holy spirit? According to Acts, they heard the apostle's teaching then immediately started poring over the word for validation.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Excellent! When I speak of experience, I am not speaking of a way to learn (though it can be). Instead, I am speaking about experiencing what we have learned from the word.

[Slug1]

Why is it that when a person questions an "ism" or the importance of an "ism", some take it as being judged?

[blessedmommyuv3]

Why is it that when a person questions an "ism" or the importance of an "ism", some take it as being judged?

Because of statements like this:

About how an "ism" stuck in the relationship with God seems to make it all a mess when trying to draw near to God.

and this:

Why a person would rather know "about" God through another person's "theology" and not "KNOW GOD" as led by ONLY the Holy Spirit

and this:

See, that's the problem... so many fail to know God as led by the Holy Spirit by clinging to what others, say about God and even what "they" say God is saying. This is the curse of all the "isms" out there in the world.

and this:

So a new question will come from this... if Jesus tells us that anyone who speaks from himself seeks his own glory, then when people cling to and indoctrinate themselves to those who spoke from themselves... who's glory are these people seeking?

I love you, Slug. You have a huge heart for God and that is so apparent in so much you post. I think, though, seeing things through a charismatic lens colors your view of theology; much as being reformed colors my understanding.
It is possible to truly experience God through an "ism"
And in answer to that very last question I quoted in this post--I know in the theology I identify with, God's glory is sought above all. In fact my particular identifying "ism" is referred to as a God centered theology; with a "high view" of God (and His sovereignty)
We all feel as if God and the Holy Spirit have led us to the particular doctrine/theology that we embrace through the careful reading and studying of scripture.
We are all at different places on our personal journey and relationship with God, and I believe He reveals Himself to us in bits and pieces as we are able to understand and comprehend and grow.
We will never (while upon this Earth) fully comprehend God and why He does what He does in all instances.

Isaiah 55:
8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

In Christ's great love,
Jen

PS: This post is in no way meant to be mean or rude or unloving--it is merely to answer the question you posed, "why do some take it as being judged".

[Slug1]

See that's the thing... I followed God through doctrine once... it was the religions way, or churches way, or the KJV only way, or whatever "ism" way that happened to be dictating the theology of any church I bounced around in. In the Army, I moved allot, had to find a new church each time.

I didn't even know that ism's existed and just figured that people followed God the ways that made them comfortable. I guess I wasn't comfortable because I read the Bible and many times, what churches adhered to wasn't aligned with what the Bible said. Also, that what they adhered to was more important because they sure weren't gonna realign themselves with the Bible.

In time I leaned this led me away from God, and my relationship wasn't through Christ as led by His spirit... how? By following God as led by an ism and not His Spirit... so much of my life just treading water and God says to tread on snakes and that we can walk on water... but God couldn't lead me because an ism was leading me. I'd rather fit in and be accepted... not want to feel judged because I was questioning the doctrine and to my laziness, submitted to the ways of the church I was in.

Well, no more...

So I ask why an ism and people feel judged?

You know me Jen, we've talked privately through PMing and I do always appreciate your input and thoughts

You dropped the charismatic card ... and here I am, the least charismatic. All I do is testify how God has worked in my life since dropping what I am learning are isms and simply allowing His Spirit to work. I see that the ism's all that time prevented this, kept me confused, and hindered me and the way God wanted to use me... so I ask in this thread. Ya want to know the actual last time I felt judged... I was talking with a friend and explained to Him that I have recorded about 30 prophetic words that I either experienced or witnessed... his comment, "only about 30, you NOVICE" He said this in a joking manner but I was hurt because to me, this was monumental in my walk with Christ over the past 3 years... put it to prayer and the Lord told me i had only begun to walk the path He put me on, now that I was off the path man had held me on and I didn't feel judged any longer.

Believe me, I don't feel judged... and if my words are attacked then I feel we're exposing a problem and if I'm the problem then speak it... I've had enemy personnel empty magazines of 7.62 on fully automatic from their AK-47s at me from 25 feet way so an attitude fired in my direction won't do much to make me feel judged or hurt my feelings.

You're right, we are all walking and growing, the priorities and truth of salvation is all baseline... just want to understand beyond that baseline and why must an ism take us above the baseline and not "just" Jesus?

[Athanasius]

Why is it that when a person questions an "ism" or the importance of an "ism", some take it as being judged?

Because of how the questions are phrased.

[Slug1]

Because of how the questions are phrased.

Hooah...

[Slug1]

I received a rep for post #35 and it was great to receive this rep:

Is Evangelism an "ism"? Good thread. Really out there in the bare nerves territory, but I think that is what you intended. I like the original devotional very much.

This got me thinking yesterday morning after I read it and got ready for work. So while I got to work at 7am and not a person around… prime time to type out what the Lord ministered to me.

First let me say that Evangelism is needed and needed more in the Body of Christ and many are led to Evangelize as we all, in one way or another, spread the Gospel, witness, and testify about God and how He works in our lives. Kinda surprises me that the Testimonies Forum on this board is not the most used of all forums.

First, I was reminded of the Great Commission and now that I can, I’ll find the scripture on Bible Gateway and paste it into this post. We have this in scripture twice so I’ll post both of them:

Mt 28: 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[c] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Mk 16: 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[b] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Well, we know this as Evangel”ism” these days. I’m not a highly educated man, I didn’t graduate high school but did pass that GED test so I don’t know when man got a hold of this command and applied the word Evangel”ism” to the Great Commission.

I have discussed these scriptures with others and many of those others are on this message board but not all as I have discussed this in Bible studies and amongst friends. After these talks I feel that the term “Evangelism” is simply mans way to accomplish the Great Commission. Why do I feel this? Well, as with pretty much all the ism’s of man, Evangelism has limited God concerning this command. I have been told by some others that God didn’t mean for us to include the signs! I say, if He didn’t mean what He said, why waste His breath?!!

OK, if He didn’t really intend them, why are the words from Jesus’ mouth stating what to do… well, an answer to this… man removes this portion from today’s Evangelism because Jesus didn’t “instruct” on the know how of healing, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, and that if we’re poisoned it won’t affect us. We are completely satisfied to go out and speak about Jesus under our own power and not His power.

Here is an example from the Bible which leads me to wonder why Evangelism, as man defines the Great Commission, has removed God’s Power and thus limits us to only the human effort of spreading the Gospel. Let’s look at this scripture:

Luke 10: 1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also,[a] and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. 2 Then He said to them, “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. 3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. 5 But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. 8 Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. 9 And heal the sick there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11 ‘The very dust of your city which clings to us[b] we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.’ 12 But[c] I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city.

Woe to the Impenitent Cities

13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades.[d] 16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

The Seventy Return with Joy

17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather[f] rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” 23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

Allot to read but today’s Evangel”ISM” suppresses and hinders some of what we read about in this example. The Body of Christ can’t do as God commanded and the answer is because Evangelism has been placed somewhere between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and by doing this… has disrupted the relationship and thus removed the power of God from us being obedient to God’s command which we know as the Great Commission.

There are examples we read of spreading the Gospel and no need for any signs, so signs are not necessary but man has been reduced to… they are never necessary by always doing this task their way and not God’s way as the Holy Spirit leads. Many are led to Christ and they accept Christ, Praise God.

But what if the Holy Spirit wanted to do something for those being spoken to… wanted to heal someone for example and due to today’s concept of Evangelism, the Holy Spirit was quenched because the planned agenda and script, or some “proven” method of the Evangelist… that doesn’t include the movement of the Holy Spirit.

I read some threads on this board asking about the Body of Christ and why we (the Church) cannot move in the Power of God? Well, it’s because we have placed various “isms” into our relationship with God and God isn’t gonna work through our understanding. He isn’t gonna tell us HOW to go out and spread the Gospel and while doing that, also heal, cast out demons, speak in new tongues. I can hear God saying, “Oh by the way, do this MY way and I’ll ENABLE you to do all I want and I’ll protect you from poison so DON’T worry about HOW… just DO!”

We just do it in obedience as the Holy Spirit leads us and we don’t need the “knowhow”, all God needs is people who are gonna allow themselves to be used so HE enables the healing, and casting and speaking in new tongues, and also protect us.

Evangel”ism”, mans way, limits us because we can’t accomplish all the tasks of the Great Commission except the, go out into the world and speak to others about God and baptize those who accept Jesus as their Savior. Nothing wrong but this still has us limited to doing it under only our strength and our resources without the Power of God because this “ism” puts human understanding to spreading the Gospel, designed methods, published “how to” books based on these methods, etc.

Today when a person Evangelizes and is followed by signs, it is only the type that they were holding up in their hands or nailed to walls for others to read.

[Dani H]

I think people feel judged by the mentioning of "isms" because as humans, we identify ourselves with so many things. With our parents, with our upbringing, with traditions, with certain people who have impacted us, with all sorts of things. And so when somebody steps on one of those things we happen to identify ourselves with, we too feel stepped on.

If somebody criticizes the charismatic movement and you become offended, check your loyalties and identification. If somebody criticizes Calvinism and you become offended, check your loyalties and identification. These things should never be.

Let your offense be because somebody steps on Jesus. Let your whole of identification be in Him. Remove the other ties from within yourselves. Only then can you judge objectively and only then can you discard offenses. That is my challenge to you because that is one thing that God has worked with me over the years. I appreciate all the "isms" for different reasons, and I can see the treasures in all of them. But my identification is with neither of them and so there is no offense within me regarding these matters. Because I can look at them objectively and understand where they fall short. There is great freedom in that because then you can serve God in any place, in any capacity, without stumbling blocks and offense. Who the Son sets free from these things, is free indeed.

The offense is always with us, not with the person making the statements that offend us. That is where we must start.

[Slug1]

I think people feel judged by the mentioning of "isms" because as humans, we identify ourselves with so many things. With our parents, with our upbringing, with traditions, with certain people who have impacted us, with all sorts of things. And so when somebody steps on one of those things we happen to identify ourselves with, we too feel stepped on.

If somebody criticizes the charismatic movement and you become offended, check your loyalties and identification. If somebody criticizes Calvinism and you become offended, check your loyalties and identification. These things should never be.

Let your offense be because somebody steps on Jesus. Let your whole of identification be in Him. Remove the other ties from within yourselves. Only then can you judge objectively and only then can you discard offenses. That is my challenge to you because that is one thing that God has worked with me over the years. I appreciate all the "isms" for different reasons, and I can see the treasures in all of them. But my identification is with neither of them and so there is no offense within me regarding these matters. Because I can look at them objectively and understand where they fall short. There is great freedom in that because then you can serve God in any place, in any capacity, without stumbling blocks and offense. Who the Son sets free from these things, is free indeed.

The offense is always with us, not with the person making the statements that offend us. That is where we must start.

Thank you Dani and I agree with you concerning the judgement concerning questioning ism's.

Do you feel that utilizing an "ism" to define oneself takes away from Jesus defining Himself in us? We are told in the Bible to be "in Christ"... can we do this through an "ism" that we follow instead of simply following Christ?

[HisLeast]

An "ism" is just a categorization of knowledge and principles. They aren't bad in and of themselves. If they were, then how do we approach things like Monotheism or for that matter, Theism?

[Dani H]

Thank you Dani and I agree with you concerning the judgement concerning questioning ism's.

Do you feel that utilizing an "ism" to define oneself takes away from Jesus defining Himself in us? We are told in the Bible to be "in Christ"... can we do this through an "ism" that we follow instead of simply following Christ?

I can only relate my own experience here. I was raised Catholic/Protestant. That was my childhood identification because that was where my family attended and so I was there too. Later on, when I was born again, the first church God placed me in was Pentecostal. I went "oo this is neat" and my new identification promptly caused me to judge all things Catholic/Protestant because I was happy at my church and thought Pentecostal was "better."

Then God moved me across the country and put me in a Baptist church. I thought to myself, "Why do I have to go there? What am I gonna do with these Baptists? They're not Pentecostal, so there's something wrong with them!"

God, knowing my innermost thoughts, made me publicly stand up and repent to these people for my snobbishness, for my judgmental attitude, and for my arrogance. Then I had to repent for my attitude towards Catholics and Protestants and all these other things, and I had to disassociate myself inwardly for having identified myself too strongly with Pentecostalism and Charismatics. It was a long, painful process, where God exposed my inward attitudes and let me know that He was not impressed nor was He happy. As I repented, and allowed Him to cut those inward ties and misplaced loyalties and refocused me on Himself, that is where I found freedom. Because "isms" really are an illusion. They don't exist. Because when you closely examine what people really believe, you will find that even people within denominations don't all agree with everything about that denomination. There is no true Catholic. Because everybody, while they may adhere to much of the teaching, still brings many personal beliefs to the table. There is no true Pentecostal. There is no such thing as a true-to-the-core Calvinist. Dig a little deeper, and you will find that to be so. Most of us, if we're really honest with ourselves, are spread all over the map. But we have all chosen to pitch our tents with whatever seems closest to what we personally believe, for a host of reasons. And really, sometimes, it's easier to just stay where we're at, because we may secretly be afraid of having our own beliefs examined that we've held on so dearly because we think if we give any of them up, we may lose who we are.

Well, who are we, really? Are we just the sum of our personal beliefs, or something more beyond that? Again, identity and identification, I think, are really at the root of all these arguments. And maybe God is allowing us to become offended, because He is trying to show us something about ourselves that He is wanting to deal with.

Years ago, if you had said anything negatory about Charismatics/Pentecostals, I would have jumped all kinds of over you and let you know how wrong you are, and how dare you?! These days, I don't care anymore. What grieves me now are people from whatever background going at people from whatever other background. Because my focus is on people's hearts, and not on labels. You wanna label yourself? That's on you. God doesn't label us like that. But if you choose to label yourself, then you can't say nothing when somebody makes statements you find offensive. You really can't, because your offense stems from your own choices, whether purposefully or subconsciously. Our hearts, they're difficult things sometimes, but everything about us stems from our hearts. Which is why the Bible tells us to guard them with all diligence. We have to know what we're guarding, first of all, though. Are you guarding offenses? Are you guarding misplaced loyalties? Remove your guard, let God expose what's there, and let Him teach you, and remove those things that hinder.

You can know God in a Baptist church. You can know God in a Pentecostal church. You can know God in a Catholic church. You can know Him in a Calvinist church. You really can. It's entirely possible. Because those who seek Him with their whole hearts, will find Him anywhere and He will make sure that they do.

On the other hand, being against "isms" can also be seen as arrogant and prejudiced, and so I can't say that God isn't in any of them. We have to pull ourselves out of the muck of our own judgmentalisms and just focus on the Lord Himself and meet at His table as equals because we are one in Him. The early Church dealt with that too. Am I Jewish? Am I Gentile? What the heck am I? We're still dealing with the same exact thing, 2000 years later. That is why Paul said, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile. There is neither Pentecostal nor Catholic nor Calvinist nor Lutheran. There are only people, and their hearts. That's it.

Which brings me back to my original statement: Identify yourself with the Lord Himself, and with everything else secondary, and be ready to discard your views and be willing to unlearn and learn anew, and be open to Him, regardless.

[Slug1]

God Bless You Dani...

Once I shed the ism's and simply allowed God to express Himself through me, it's as you posted. I've been to so many churches and experienced so many "ways" and now God only wants "His" way as He expresses Himself through me.

Now, imagine me... in a Baptist church and I allow the Lord to express Himself the way that I testify all over this board... would I be run out and told not to return because it's not the way they say to experience God?

[Dani H]

Funny thing is, I'm in a Baptist church. And it's great. Because I can fellowship with these cutiepies there and look at them as individuals and not as "Baptists." And I can make a difference there by just bringing Jesus to the table and sharing Him. It's been quite wonderful and I've met some neat people that I love dearly. Couldn't have happened with the "old me" that's for sure though.

If you're struggling with denominational attitudes and the offenses they bring, even just a little, I'd encourage you to get in your car, drive through your town, park yourself in every single church parking lot, and start praying for that church until God gives you the release to quit praying and leave. It may take you several weeks, or months, but who cares? You'll soon realize there is only one Body. And we belong to the Head of it all. We're not in competition, and whatever affects one of us, affects all of us.

[Slug1]

Funny thing is, I'm in a Baptist church. And it's great. Because I can fellowship with these cutiepies there and look at them as individuals and not as "Baptists." And I can make a difference there by just bringing Jesus to the table and sharing Him. It's been quite wonderful and I've met some neat people that I love dearly. Couldn't have happened with the "old me" that's for sure though.

If you're struggling with denominational attitudes and the offenses they bring, even just a little, I'd encourage you to get in your car, drive through your town, park yourself in every single church parking lot, and start praying for that church until God gives you the release to quit praying and leave. It may take you several weeks, or months, but who cares? You'll soon realize there is only one Body. And we belong to the Head of it all. We're not in competition, and whatever affects one of us, affects all of us.

See, thats the thing, God is leading me to do exactly that despite the resistance I will experience due to people holding their ways (isms, religion, denom, rules, rituals, regs, etc) above what God wants from them. He wants to work through them, not them work through all the other stuff I listed in the () in the last sentence.

Right now, due to all those isms, religions, denominational rules and rituals... He can't work through them.

Yeah, led to do more then just pray but speak.