Know God vs. Know about God - the "isms" problem

[notuptome]

Relationship with God, though Jesus, led by the Holy Spirit.

Baiscally a one line summary of this entire thread.

How will you know when you acheive this relationship?

Aspire... let me get my dictionary first... standby.

Webster be ardently desirous esp. for something spiritual.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Bladers]

“Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercises lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.”
- Jeremiah 9:23-24

"Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
- Exodus 33

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
- John 17:3

How will you know when you acheive this relationship?

“If you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures; Then shall you understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.”
- Proverbs 2:4-5

[Slug1]

Without getting too personal how would you describe the best possible relationship with Christ short of being in His physical presence in heaven?

To what do you aspire?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Aspire... let me get my dictionary first... standby.

After some prayer and while attending our worship practice last night, this is how the Lord ministered to me... the word aspire limits me.

God has a purpose for me, He makes His will known and as I am obedient to His will, all falls into specific order and all doors are open. "I" simply want to be an obedient servant, I don't want to aspire, all there is, is for the Lord to tell me what He wants me to aspire to. His will, that I am obedient to.

This is one of the reasons for this thread... the Lord couldn't do this with me because all the religion, rituals, isms, rules, regs, of the church or denomination that I was in at the time was more important then God's will for me. Plus the fact I was a straight up cessationist, or what ever this is called because "I believed" God ceased manifesting though obedient servants today... I was wrong. I couldn't aspire to anything that the Lord wanted because I placed all that religion, rituals, isms, etc into the relationship. I placed this as more important then simply a relationship with God, through Jesus, led by the Holy Spirit.

God wanted a relationship with me, one on one and He doesn't do that through religion, rituals, isms, etc... Jesus isn't gonna define Himself in me and through me by the religion I'm in, what ism I can label myself for convenience... or for that matter what labels others label me because the Lord manifests and I'm now a charismatic... Well, when I wasn't a "charismatic" the Lord wasn't able to do anything with me because all I defined myself with and at that time, all I "ASPIRED" to be was in obedience to the religion, rituals, isms... The rest of the Christian world was happy I was just like them... now as the Lord shows who HE IS through me, I'm a charismatic and I'm warned by God not to be slowed or stopped by those who will honestly, fight against the testimony Jesus is giving me.

When will someone label me... "obedient" because I do as the Lord leads me and if this means allowing Him to manifest through me... all I'm doing is being an obedient vessel for Him to use. What the Lord does in Power through all those in the Body of Christ isn't for any entertainment, or for us to feel good... it's so HE can do HIS work through us and Glorify himself.

Yet, I'm called a charismatic now.

Roger, luv ya dude but I'm saddened by the lack of mercy and grace in all you say in many topics on this board. You quench the Lord's need to reach others through all the ways He has available which is truthfully, more ways then just the Bible. You compared me with a puppy and yes, I reported that post because you attempt to tear down the work that the Lord is doing in me and through me... read through this thread Roger, the Lord is helping readers and then there are a few trying to tear down the Lord's work and the help He's offering to the readers. You question my faith because I testify how the Lord uses me and how He's worked around me and is working through me and this obviously has never been experienced by you, in the way I have experienced the Lord working. Well, Roger... I never experienced the Lord working this way either while I was to busy defining myself through a religion, the rituals associated with that religion and any and all isms I now understand that I was adhering to. The Lord ended this, that night He manifested before me and I experienced my own Damascus Road encounter with God.

I will also like for this thread to continue on topic instead of you attempting to bind me with any attempt to not get personal... The Lord has told me to testify and He also has told me many will attempt to quiet me... are you one of those that the Lord warned me about? If you are to answer this, please PM me. I will forewarn you, any and all replies I give you will be CCed to the Ministers and BCCed to the Lead Admin of this ministry as we converse. I was once the Lead Admin in this ministry and I don't keep anything hidden.

EDIT: Something God has just ministered to me... God wants to show people what He is like. He can't do this through any religion or denomination, no ritual, no "ism". He can show people on this earth what He's like through those, who say that they are His followers, who have put their trust in Him and He has given them faith to follow Him, HIS way. The Lord is a healer, thus He heals through us. He edifies, thus He speaks prophecy in the ways the Bible states... either by tongues that are interpreted, or He speaks directly through a person Gifted as a prophet. I can use each and every Gift we find in the Bible as an example right now but there is no need.

That is what He wants me to aspire to... so the world will know what He is like. Not by what I "say" He is like but for Him to show the world what He is like through me.

[notuptome]

After some prayer and while attending our worship practice last night, this is how the Lord ministered to me... the word aspire limits me.

I only inquired because it seemed you were seeking something that you had not yet attained.

God has a purpose for me, He makes His will known and as I am obedient to His will, all falls into specific order and all doors are open. "I" simply want to be an obedient servant, I don't want to aspire, all there is, is for the Lord to tell me what He wants me to aspire to. His will, that I am obedient to.

God has a purpose of all of His children. Is Gods will for your life and mine revealed through Gods word by Gods Holy Spirit?

This is one of the reasons for this thread... the Lord couldn't do this with me because all the religion, rituals, isms, rules, regs, of the church or denomination that I was in at the time was more important then God's will for me. Plus the fact I was a straight up cessationist, or what ever this is called because "I believed" God ceased manifesting though obedient servants today... I was wrong. I couldn't aspire to anything that the Lord wanted because I placed all that religion, rituals, isms, etc into the relationship. I placed this as more important then simply a relationship with God, through Jesus, led by the Holy Spirit.

Here again we agree that God does not work through religion, rituals and the like but God does work through His word and by His Holy Spirit revealing the truth of His word. You seemed to be saying that you would not be as concerned by what Gods word said if you felt the spirit was revealing something different. I hope I have misunderstood you and perhaps you can set me straight.

God wanted a relationship with me, one on one and He doesn't do that through religion, rituals, isms, etc... Jesus isn't gonna define Himself in me and through me by the religion I'm in, what ism I can label myself for convenience... or for that matter what labels others label me because the Lord manifests and I'm now a charismatic... Well, when I wasn't a "charismatic" the Lord wasn't able to do anything with me because all I defined myself with and at that time, all I "ASPIRED" to be was in obedience to the religion, rituals, isms... The rest of the Christian world was happy I was just like them... now as the Lord shows who HE IS through me, I'm a charismatic and I'm warned by God not to be slowed or stopped by those who will honestly, fight against the testimony Jesus is giving me.

You as are all Christians entitled to a one on one relationship with Jesus as this is exactly what Jesus desires. I am not certain that defining your relationship with Christ by the extent of 'charasmatic' manifestations what Christ has in mind for His children.

When will someone label me... "obedient" because I do as the Lord leads me and if this means allowing Him to manifest through me... all I'm doing is being an obedient vessel for Him to use. What the Lord does in Power through all those in the Body of Christ isn't for any entertainment, or for us to feel good... it's so HE can do HIS work through us and Glorify himself.

First of all it isn't important how others label you. If the Lord gives assurance that you are obedient to Him then what others say is of no importance. I have always beleived that the Lord expected me to be obedient to His word.

Yet, I'm called a charismatic now.

How does that matter?

Roger, luv ya dude but I'm saddened by the lack of mercy and grace in all you say in many topics on this board. You quench the Lord's need to reach others through all the ways He has available which is truthfully, more ways then just the Bible. You compared me with a puppy and yes, I reported that post because you attempt to tear down the work that the Lord is doing in me and through me... read through this thread Roger, the Lord is helping readers and then there are a few trying to tear down the Lord's work and the help He's offering to the readers. You question my faith because I testify how the Lord uses me and how He's worked around me and is working through me and this obviously has never been experienced by you, in the way I have experienced the Lord working. Well, Roger... I never experienced the Lord working this way either while I was to busy defining myself through a religion, the rituals associated with that religion and any and all isms I now understand that I was adhering to. The Lord ended this, that night He manifested before me and I experienced my own Damascus Road encounter with God.

I hope I have been consistant in my effort to point you to the word of God as the only reliable basis for evaluating all things spiritual. I do not recall directing you to any religion, church or rite but only to the word of God.

I will also like for this thread to continue on topic instead of you attempting to bind me with any attempt to not get personal... The Lord has told me to testify and He also has told me many will attempt to quiet me... are you one of those that the Lord warned me about? If you are to answer this, please PM me. I will forewarn you, any and all replies I give you will be CCed to the Ministers and BCCed to the Lead Admin of this ministry as we converse. I was once the Lead Admin in this ministry and I don't keep anything hidden.

I was not attempting to bind you I was only extending to you the kindness of not disclosing anything that might not be suitable for the open forum.

Its always nice to know the ground rules when going into a conversation but rest assured I will not say anything that you cannot share with whomever you choose. There is after nothing hidden from the Lords eyes.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

[Bladers]

Hello, Please I would like to respond to three of your question with three questions if i may?

I only inquired because it seemed you were seeking something that you had not yet attained.

So, what about Paul? He sought something all through his live, which he said he didn't fully attain yet. He sought a deeper intimacy with Jesus.
(That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death)

God has a purpose of all of His children. Is Gods will for your life and mine revealed through Gods word by Gods Holy Spirit?

if it is revealed through God's word by the Spirit, then How does the Holy Spirit reveal it? In what ways?

You seemed to be saying that you would not be as concerned by what Gods word said if you felt the spirit was revealing something different. I hope I have misunderstood you and perhaps you can set me straight.

I want to ask, What if you went to work through public transportation bus. And one day, the Holy Spirit tells you: "When your going to work today, go to the back of the bus, You will see a man seating at your right with blue coat. Tell him about Jesus"

What will you Do?

[tango]

Here again we agree that God does not work through religion, rituals and the like but God does work through His word and by His Holy Spirit revealing the truth of His word. You seemed to be saying that you would not be as concerned by what Gods word said if you felt the spirit was revealing something different. I hope I have misunderstood you and perhaps you can set me straight.

It seems very easy to use the term "something different" in multiple ways.

Bladers already have an example of a situation in which God might guide us in a way that is specific to us. The Bible can't possibly tell us what to do in every single situation we might ever find ourselves - it can show us the nature of God and give us guidance for how to live our life but can't always give us very specific insights into the situations we find ourselves day-to-day. To give you another example - recently I led the Bible study at the house group I attend. It was based on notes provided by the preacher the previous Sunday, but I added a section to it. When we met it turned out that the Scripture I'd added was directly relevant to a situation another member is in right now. There's no way I could have known that by natural means, and nothing in the Bible said I should add the verse. So in that sense we could say God gave me something over and above what the Bible said because it was relevant to a specific situation into which I could speak, as opposed to being relevant for all Christians throughout time.

If God seemed to be saying something different to Scripture in the sense that it appeared to contradict Scripture then I would agree that great caution is in order. It's possible that we had misunderstood the Scripture or that for some reason it did not apply to the specific situation (e.g. the instruction in Eze 5:1 directly contradicts Lev 19:27), but of course it's also possible that we are being swayed by our own desires or being tempted by the devil.

[Slug1]

I hope I have misunderstood you and perhaps you can set me straight.

Welp, as has been questioned to you many, many times in other threads and now in this thread... how is the Holy Spirit going to tell you what Bladers asked if you can only hear God by what you read in the Bible? In effect, even though the Lord speaks loud and clear through the Bible, you are effectively "deaf" to the movement of the Holy Spirit if you happen to be walking through a store and He's telling you to give $5 bucks to a lady with a red jacket because she just prayed to God concerning a need to buy all the needed food iems for her family but she knows she's short by $5 and she's on the verge to place herself in His hand but is hesitating and she asks Him to show her He will help.

What Bible, will tell you to give $5 to a lady in a red jacket and testify to her how God placed the need to offer the $5 to her.

You won't and the way you say that God will ONLY speak through the Bible will cause you to be ineffective when you can't hear the Holy Spirit.

[BroRog]

I want to ask, What if you went to work through public transportation bus. And one day, the Holy Spirit tells you: "When your going to work today, go to the back of the bus, You will see a man seating at your right with blue coat. Tell him about Jesus"
What will you Do?

How do you know it's the Holy Spirit and not just your imagination?

[BroRog]

If God seemed to be saying something different to Scripture in the sense that it appeared to contradict Scripture then I would agree that great caution is in order.

I'm glad you hear you say this. But what I am hearing from Slug1 is the opposite and it bothers me to hear him say it. He has said four or five things in this thread that send up red flags for me and I don't see these things being addressed. And from what I have read so far in this thread, what Slug1 has said leads me to believe that he would be unresponsive to correction from the scriptures as he would simply ignore it, claiming that he is being led by the Spirit instead.

[Slug1]

I'm glad you hear you say this. But what I am hearing from Slug1 is the opposite and it bothers me to hear him say it. He has said four or five things in this thread that send up red flags for me and I don't see these things being addressed. And from what I have read so far in this thread, what Slug1 has said leads me to believe that he would be unresponsive to correction from the scriptures as he would simply ignore it, claiming that he is being led by the Spirit instead.

Can you single out the examples, please?

The Lord Himself had to correct me concerning my interpretation of scripture, specially when I was on this message board telling everyone that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased... finally I took up a members advice to seek God instead of my arrangement of scripture to match my interpretation. Took a full year of seeking the Lord concerning this and then He manifested in power and opened my eyes... and heart.

Also, are you gonna start that thread from the posts #66/67?

[Slug1]

How do you know it's the Holy Spirit and not just your imagination?

This is how you test the Spirit... you do it. What's it gonna hurt? Then when you find out this man in the blue coat had been seeking Christ and had asked God to prove Himself, asking that He'd send a person to talk to them about His Son, while on the way to work... it happens because a servant can not only "hear" the Holy Spirit, but is obedient.

Would you then say it was your imagination?

It works, and guess what... you know what the Holy Spirit sounds like or feels like when He's speaking to you and prompting you to work.

[Vhayes]

Brother Roger - I am the least charismatic person on the board. I believe God can, and does, do anything He desires including healing people. I do not, nor have I ever spoken in what is commonly understood as "tongues". The Lord has used me at times to reach out to people in "strange" ways. Like being led to go up to a man and tell him he needed to go see a doctor because what he thought was a mole was not. To give money and my gloves to a homeless person. To give exactly $3.70 to a person who came to my door. To tell a complete stranger on a elevator that she was loved and she should not be sad (even though she looked far from sad). To get a gun when I went to the door another time.

It happens. The Holy Spirit uses me when I am willing. Not 24 hours a day but when there is a person who needs something specific.

I hope that helps a bit. This is not a charismatic thing at all or at least not that I am aware of. It is being filled with the Spirit.

V

[Slug1]

Brother Roger - I am the least charismatic person on the board. I believe God can, and does, do anything He desires including healing people. I do not, nor have I ever spoken in what is commonly understood as "tongues". The Lord has used me at times to reach out to people in "strange" ways. Like being led to go up to a man and tell him he needed to go see a doctor because what he thought was a mole was not. To give money and my gloves to a homeless person. To give exactly $3.70 to a person who came to my door. To tell a complete stranger on a elevator that she was loved and she should not be sad (even though she looked far from sad). To get a gun when I went to the door another time.

It happens. The Holy Spirit uses me when I am willing. Not 24 hours a day but when there is a person who needs something specific.

I hope that helps a bit. This is not a charismatic thing at all or at least not that I am aware of. It is being filled with the Spirit.

V

Thanks for the testimony V

We'll have to arm wrestle to see who's the least charismatic

[BroRog]

Can you single out the examples, please?

Sure. Here goes.

Slug1 Seems many serve God according to what they are "taught" compared to serving God as they are led. Yes, educate me about God but when it comes to my relationship with God it's only through what He's given us... Himself, His Son, His Spirit.

Here you give more weight to your encounters with signs and wonders than your education. I understand and appreciate the difference between "book learning" and "practical experience" but I have never heard anyone despise the first in favor of the second as you seem to be doing, which is the "red flag" I spoke about.

Anyone who has seen combat will tell you that being in combat is nothing like reading a book about combat. At the same time, they wouldn't have survived combat long enough to tell you about it, if they hadn't practiced and trained for combat in advance. And just as good soldiers serve in combat according to what they were "taught", a good warrior for Christ will enter "combat" armed with "what they were taught."

Slug1 Submission as you put it, surrender as I put it... it's allowing God to be in control and allowing Him to allow us to experience what we can't "learn". The only way to do this is to let His Spirit work in us through our submission and/or surrender.

Here you advocate for a loss of control, which runs contrary to what Paul taught, "the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet." Being led by the Spirit is not the same as being controlled by the Spirit. Your statement that you allow "God" to control you is another red flag.

Slug1Anyway, learning helps and I need to learn much as we all do but experiencing can be hindered by filtering our relationship with Jesus ONLY through what we are taught by man.

As I said in an earlier post, your concern remains focused on experience, though the title of the thread indicates your concern is knowing Jesus.

In your statement above, you have set the teaching of man against your experiences as if the two were naturally and always contradictory. While it might sound pious to set our "experiences" against the teachings of "man" we know that Jesus and the Apostles were men and they taught us things that must be believed in order to receive eternal life. Your comparison makes no distinction between false teachings of men and true teachings of men. When someone despises men in favor of the Spirit, this is a big red flag.

I wonder if you have simply overstated your case by attempting to be critical of all "-ism's" when your real concern is with cessationism. Why set the gift of healing against the gift of prophecy or the gift of teaching? Why criticize all teaching, even wise, Godly teaching, in order to make a point about the false teaching of cessationism?

Slug1How do I "know it" now... when I am filled, fed by a sermon given by the Holy Spirit... the pastor is nothing but a vessel who's being used, my body physically reacts. My heart feels like it's bursting from my chest, I cry, I laugh, I praise, I worship and it's not me (physically).

Here is another really big red flag. The Mormons teach a doctrine called "the burning in the bosom." When confronted with the error of certain doctrines or false teachings, a Mormon will say that he "knows" what he believes is true, not for having good reasons to believe it, but because he has a burning in his chest. The Mormon's measure of what is true is not what is consistent with fact or reality, but a physiological reaction in the chest. Not only are you giving more weight to your experiences than the teaching of men, but your are basing the truth of what you hear on your bodily reaction to what you hear, rather than the revealed word of God.

Slug1Something I read tonight is interesting concerning this thread and how it's moving. Sure we learn from others, we can learn from other's experiences (testimonies) but until we experience for ourselves, what is a learning "experience"? Hands on, a classroom, a sermon, a book, an ism, combination of any... what about "knowing" only through the Holy Spirit?

Finally, we come to a doctrine not taught in the Bible, "knowing only through the Holy Spirit." The Holy Spirit is not another method of obtaining knowledge that circumvents our normal human processes of knowledge. When the Apostles want to teach us something or they want us to believe something, they use words and ordinary language to persuade us. They gave us their writings so that generations to follow would also be persuaded. If they meant for us to gain knowledge directly and supernaturally, then why give us a Bible? Why use a Bible at all? And that is also a red flag, to dissuade others from seeking the truth in the Bible in favor of seeking the truth directly through the Holy Spirit runs contrary to everything else we know about Jesus and the Apostles.

Since Paul teaches us that the scriptures are good for correction, it concerns me when anyone places their experience above the scriptures to the point that they wouldn't subject themselves to them. I'm concerned that you are building a wall around you against wise and good teaching.

[Slug1]

Sure. Here goes.

Here you give more weight to your encounters with signs and wonders than your education. I understand and appreciate the difference between "book learning" and "practical experience" but I have never heard anyone despise the first in favor of the second as you seem to be doing, which is the "red flag" I spoke about.

Anyone who has seen combat will tell you that being in combat is nothing like reading a book about combat. At the same time, they wouldn't have survived combat long enough to tell you about it, if they hadn't practiced and trained for combat in advance. And just as good soldiers serve in combat according to what they were "taught", a good warrior for Christ will enter "combat" armed with "what they were taught."

Here you advocate for a loss of control, which runs contrary to what Paul taught, "the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet." Being led by the Spirit is not the same as being controlled by the Spirit. Your statement that you allow "God" to control you is another red flag.

As I said in an earlier post, your concern remains focused on experience, though the title of the thread indicates your concern is knowing Jesus.

In your statement above, you have set the teaching of man against your experiences as if the two were naturally and always contradictory. While it might sound pious to set our "experiences" against the teachings of "man" we know that Jesus and the Apostles were men and they taught us things that must be believed in order to receive eternal life. Your comparison makes no distinction between false teachings of men and true teachings of men. When someone despises men in favor of the Spirit, this is a big red flag.

I wonder if you have simply overstated your case by attempting to be critical of all "-ism's" when your real concern is with cessationism. Why set the gift of healing against the gift of prophecy or the gift of teaching? Why criticize all teaching, even wise, Godly teaching, in order to make a point about the false teaching of cessationism?

Here is another really big red flag. The Mormons teach a doctrine called "the burning in the bosom." When confronted with the error of certain doctrines or false teachings, a Mormon will say that he "knows" what he believes is true, not for having good reasons to believe it, but because he has a burning in his chest. The Mormon's measure of what is true is not what is consistent with fact or reality, but a physiological reaction in the chest. Not only are you giving more weight to your experiences than the teaching of men, but your are basing the truth of what you hear on your bodily reaction to what you hear, rather than the revealed word of God.

Finally, we come to a doctrine not taught in the Bible, "knowing only through the Holy Spirit." The Holy Spirit is not another method of obtaining knowledge that circumvents our normal human processes of knowledge. When the Apostles want to teach us something or they want us to believe something, they use words and ordinary language to persuade us. They gave us their writings so that generations to follow would also be persuaded. If they meant for us to gain knowledge directly and supernaturally, then why give us a Bible? Why use a Bible at all? And that is also a red flag, to dissuade others from seeking the truth in the Bible in favor of seeking the truth directly through the Holy Spirit runs contrary to everything else we know about Jesus and the Apostles.

Since Paul teaches us that the scriptures are good for correction, it concerns me when anyone places their experience above the scriptures to the point that they wouldn't subject themselves to them. I'm concerned that you are building a wall around you against wise and good teaching.

OK, now ya got me a little confused because earlier you said this:

And from what I have read so far in this thread, what Slug1 has said leads me to believe that he would be unresponsive to correction from the scriptures as he would simply ignore it, claiming that he is being led by the Spirit instead.

I guess I expected you to use scripture and not opinion of or interpretation of scripture. Believe me, I won't ignore scripture... use the scripture to explain what ya said.

I see we also have some concept (is that a correct word) differences also... while I say surrender, i don't think it's the same concept that you have. have you ever surrendered to the Holy Spirit as you were used by God for Him to heal a person or you speak a word of prophecy to them?

Does the Holy Spirit take over... no because I can keep my mouth shut or refuse to lay hands on a person and not allow myself to be used to speak or to heal.

I also never said anything against the Bible... against religion, rituals, ism... sure. But never the Bible, unless you consider my words that the Lord speaks to us in ways other then ONLY through the Bible? This means not to read the Bible at all to you? Hardly dude...

As for knowing only from the Holy Spirit... you have read the other posts in this thread concerning the Holy Spirit telling you to witness to a man at the back of the bus in a blue jacket... such "knowledge" can ONLY come from the Holy Spirit if it's a message and task from God.

Or V's testimony of what she was led to do by the Holy Spirit.. only from the Holy Spirit...

Does this help?

I've been to combat 4 times over 2 wars and a Peace Keeping mission so I understand what you say and due to my experience, what was learned in the manuals, toss most away and experience keeps you alive. The basics, basics and fundamentals work... but we're discussing a relationship with God, allot is spiritual in nature so, as I brought out in a post earlier... if the Bible says we are to go out into the world, speak the Gospel and heal, speak in new tongues, cast out demons, be protected from poison... ummmm, how? Find me the scripture that instructs us how to do this? Only through the Holy Spirit dude... we don't need to know, just surrender and let the Holy Spirit do His job to glorify God.

But then if you did, you'd be labeled a charismatic then...