Know God vs. Know about God - the "isms" problem

[Bladers]

Hey BroRog, I don't want to interfere between you and Slug1.
But i just have to address a few things...

Here you give more weight to your encounters with signs and wonders than your education. I understand and appreciate the difference between "book learning" and "practical experience" but I have never heard anyone despise the first in favor of the second as you seem to be doing, which is the "red flag" I spoke about.

Walter Beuttler Once said:
God complained in Hosea's day, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6a). He was not speaking of a lack of “secular” knowledge, but of a lack of the “spiritual” knowledge of God. It is one thing to know about God, yet quite another thing to know God. Just as it is one thing to know about a popular person, and quite another thing to personally know that person.

Men can store up theological facts in their minds, while the God of these facts may mean little more to them than subject matter. Not yielding their minds to be illuminated by the Holy Spirit, they fail to experience a transformation in their manner of thinking. This illumination can only take place as the Holy Spirit “renews” their minds, without which they are incapable of proving “What is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Romans 12:2b)."

In your statement above, you have set the teaching of man against your experiences as if the two were naturally and always contradictory. While it might sound pious to set our "experiences" against the teachings of "man" we know that Jesus and the Apostles were men and they taught us things that must be believed in order to receive eternal life. Your comparison makes no distinction between false teachings of men and true teachings of men. When someone despises men in favor of the Spirit, this is a big red flag.

Well, The word of God is not doctrine. Doctrine is man made. We have enough doctrines today to sink the biggest SHIP! I don't think we need anymore doctrines.

I wonder if you have simply overstated your case by attempting to be critical of all "-ism's" when your real concern is with cessationism. Why set the gift of healing against the gift of prophecy or the gift of teaching? Why criticize all teaching, even wise, Godly teaching, in order to make a point about the false teaching of cessationism?

"The unspiritual mind of the unspiritual man has done, and is still doing incalculable damage to the cause of the Lord in His Church. The man with the unspiritual mind is not satisfied with the Scriptural regulation of what are commonly called the “Gifts of the Spirit.” Therefore, he makes his own judgment regarding the authoritative criterion of the working of the Holy Spirit, until he regulates the “Gifts of the Spirit” out of the Church.

Having become wise in his own conceit, the unspiritual man substitutes for, and finally denies, the spiritual operations and manifestations of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which brought into being the movement of which he has “nominally” become a part. He will substitute feasting for fasting, ritual for life, entertainment for visitation, popularity for the cross, compromise for courage, and human psychology for spiritual discernment. He will present Christianity as sugar instead of salt, and solicit the praise of men, rather than the honor of God." Walter Beuttler.

[Slug1]

Hey BroRog, I don't want to interfere between you and Slug1.
But i just have to address a few things...

Thanks Bladers... this has helped me.

[Athanasius]

Well, since we're all 'interfering'...

Hey BroRog, I don't want to interfere between you and Slug1.
But i just have to address a few things...

Walter Beuttler Once said:
God complained in Hosea's day, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6a). He was not speaking of a lack of “secular” knowledge, but of a lack of the “spiritual” knowledge of God. It is one thing to know about God, yet quite another thing to know God. Just as it is one thing to know about a popular person, and quite another thing to personally know that person.

Men can store up theological facts in their minds, while the God of these facts may mean little more to them than subject matter. Not yielding their minds to be illuminated by the Holy Spirit, they fail to experience a transformation in their manner of thinking. This illumination can only take place as the Holy Spirit “renews” their minds, without which they are incapable of proving “What is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Romans 12:2b)."

Proper theological knowledge isn't secular knowledge (ask any secularist), it is spiritual knowledge (by virtue of the fact that it is knowledge predicated upon spiritual things). That is to say that when addressing theological knowledge, you should not be able to create a distinction between "knowing about God" and "knowing God"--the real theologian knows both; understanding that all knowledge and wisdom comes from God and is in subjection to the Spirit. For instance, if someone claims God has done 'X' when in reality He hasn't, you have to express yourself in theological (scriptural) terms to oppose / correct them. You can't simply say 'You're wrong because I feel it's so, and anyone who is a true disciple of Jesus will agree with me!' (You notice how often they used this argument in the New Testament?). After all you don't feel the truth, you know the truth. Lacking a knowledge of God can take many forms, it can take the form of thinking you know God and holding any number of errant beliefs, in which case we have a coalescence of the 'secular' and 'spiritual' knowledge you describe above. We have to be careful when making these distinctions, for they aren't often accurately made.

There was that book a few years ago, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, well it's still fairly pertinent. God's people are being destroyed and it's because they've cast aside "intellectual knowledge" and have done so under the guise of some caricature.

Well, The word of God is not doctrine. Doctrine is man made. We have enough doctrines today to sink the biggest SHIP! I don't think we need anymore doctrines.

What does it matter that doctrine is "man made"? If you believe man make mistakes, that's true we do, but it's not necessarily true. All proper doctrine is, is teaching from scripture collected under an embrella term, perhaps with a bit of philosophy involved (caveat: which does not go against scripture). And admittedly, our (theological and spiritual) understanding of God is something akin to an iceberg--we know the top, but there's so much more we can't see.

[Bladers]

Proper theological knowledge isn't secular knowledge (ask any secularist), it is spiritual knowledge (by virtue of the fact that it is knowledge predicated upon spiritual things). That is to say that when addressing theological knowledge, you should not be able to create a distinction between "knowing about God" and "knowing God"--the real theologian knows both; understanding that all knowledge and wisdom comes from God and is in subjection to the Spirit. For instance, if someone claims God has done 'X' when in reality He hasn't, you have to express yourself in theological (scriptural) terms to oppose / correct them. You can't simply say 'You're wrong because I feel it's so, and anyone who is a true disciple of Jesus will agree with me!' (You notice how often they used this argument in the New Testament?). After all you don't feel the truth, you know the truth. Lacking a knowledge of God can take many forms, it can take the form of thinking you know God and holding any number of errant beliefs, in which case we have a coalescence of the 'secular' and 'spiritual' knowledge you describe above. We have to be careful when making these distinctions, for they aren't often accurately made.

You know, i believe in theological knowledge. I read my bible every day because that's how i learn ABOUT God. The bible is our schoolmaster to Jesus and Our Guide to keep us align with Christ and our Safety Net if we slip.

Proper theological knowledge isn't secular knowledge (ask any secularist), it is spiritual knowledge (by virtue of the fact that it is knowledge predicated upon spiritual things). That is to say that when addressing theological knowledge, you should not be able to create a distinction between "knowing about God" and "knowing God"--the real theologian knows both; understanding that all knowledge and wisdom comes from God and is in subjection to the Spirit.

But, there is such a difference between knowing about God and knowing God that It is so hard to explain but i'm going to try.
True knowledge of God does not come by acquiring information about God in the usual manner in which we acquire information.
That has its place, but it takes more than that. We can read the bible 24/7 for the rest of our lifes and have no knowledge of God, but we will have alot of knowledge about God.

For example, when someone ask us. Do you know God? First thing we say is "YES"...
I can just imagine God saying, "You Liar, I'm standing right here and you don't even recognize my presence"
It's the same when we claim that we KNOW God's love, and we say: "I know his Goodness, He been so good to me". I know his nature, I know it.

But we don't, why? the Love of God, the Goodness of God. Is not some circumstance that we go through, it is not some words written in a few pages of a book.
You can find all the verse in the bible talking about the Goodness of God, it may be fact but not reality. It may be true, But its not real to you.

Over there in genesis we have a man named Moses, a man who have talked with God face to face, a man who have walked with God for a long time.
and we find him Crying out: "I WANT TO KNOW YOU"... and God says: "I will make all my goodness pass before thee"
HOLD HOLD HOLD, What about all these people today claim to know the goodness of God? claim to know God's love.
Going around singing, "Jesus loves me this i know"??? There goes all the theologians saying: "I know the nature of God".

God is not some words on a pierce of paper...
His love, his goodness, mercy and so much and so forth is not some letters arranged in a form of words.
We are talking about the most powerful energy you can ever think of.
We are talking about a literal BEING, God doesn't have power HE IS POWER.
The vastness of God begins where your imagination ends...

So then, we go around lying on God, saying i know him, I know him.
But when you ask a man to compare the goodness he knows with what Moses knew on that mountain for 40days...
You will see its like standing on the Farthest star and trying to see ONE piece of dust.

I hope that helped because that is the best i can explain it...
John said over there in the Gospel of John, he said: "and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth"
and when you ask people, do you know God's grace. They have the audacity to say: "YES I DO" how sad
Here we see the account of what John encountered on that Mountain and saw the reality of a Being whose nature was grace grace grace, love love love, truth truth. Like an overflowing of an Ocean..
But let's see peter's account over there in first peter, He said:"we were eyewitnesses of his majesty."

In the final analysis, the Knowledge of God is not some words we have stacked in our brains and our mind. But its the revelation of God to our spirit by the Spirit of God.
Paul who had all the knowledge about God in the word but still had to fall on his face and say: "WHO ARE YOU?"
and many many years later. He's in a prison crying: "I WANT TO KNOW YOU MORE"!

[Athanasius]

But, there is such a difference between knowing about God and knowing God that It is so hard to explain but i'm going to try.

I never said there wasn't; I said that proper theology (from a proper theologian) is such that there can be no distinction between the two. Of course, this limits my definition of a 'proper theologian' to a Spirit filled Christian.

[blessedmommyuv3]

I never said there wasn't; I said that proper theology (from a proper theologian) is such that there can be no distinction between the two. Of course, this limits my definition of a 'proper theologian' to a Spirit filled Christian.

I agree. I think false conversions abound when we do not have a biblical concept of who God is, and who man is in comparison.
Correct biblical theology is important.

In Christ,
Jen

[BroRog]

Walter Beuttler Once said:God complained in Hosea's day, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6a). He was not speaking of a lack of “secular” knowledge, but of a lack of the “spiritual” knowledge of God. It is one thing to know about God, yet quite another thing to know God. Just as it is one thing to know about a popular person, and quite another thing to personally know that person.

I disagree with Mr. Beuttler's interpretation. While we make a distiction between natural wisdom and divine revelation, God is not making that distinction in Hosea. Everything God says to Israel is divine revelation. God's complaint against Israel is not that she lacked knowledge, spiritual or otherwise; his complaint was that Israel rejected the information given to her. That was Isaiah's complaint also, "Lord, who believes our report?"

Men can store up theological facts in their minds, while the God of these facts may mean little more to them than subject matter. Not yielding their minds to be illuminated by the Holy Spirit, they fail to experience a transformation in their manner of thinking. This illumination can only take place as the Holy Spirit “renews” their minds, without which they are incapable of proving “What is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Romans 12:2b)."

Again, the issue isn't the mode of knowledge, i.e. Holy Spirit illumination. The challenge is made against those who will not accept what they hear or read from God as true truth. They refuse to believe it, trust it, and live according to it.

Well, The word of God is not doctrine. Doctrine is man made. We have enough doctrines today to sink the biggest SHIP! I don't think we need anymore doctrines.

This is a false distinction and not very helpful. Not all doctrine is man made. There are strange doctrines (1Tim 1:3), there are the doctrines of deceitful spirits (1Tim. 4:1) and there is sound doctrine (1Tim. 4:6). The Bible teaches us sound doctrine. The proper contrast isn't between the word of God and the doctrines of men, but between false doctrine and sound doctrine. Our question should be, "does what I am hearing agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and lead us to godliness, or not?"

[Vhayes]

This is a false distinction and not very helpful. Not all doctrine is man made. There are strange doctrines (1Tim 1:3), there are the doctrines of deceitful spirits (1Tim. 4:1) and there is sound doctrine (1Tim. 4:6). The Bible teaches us sound doctrine. The proper contrast isn't between the word of God and the doctrines of men, but between false doctrine and sound doctrine. Our question should be, "does what I am hearing agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and lead us to godliness, or not?"

Yes - absolutely. Someone can take Old Testament scripture and use it to teach that all New Testament males are Kings and Princes and therefore able to marry as many women as they desire - AND able to have concubines as well.

I can "know about" Paris by reading books, watching videos and talking with people who have been there. But I simply cannot "know" Paris until I walk the streets and touch the culture.

[Bladers]

I disagree with Mr. Beuttler's interpretation. While we make a distiction between natural wisdom and divine revelation, God is not making that distinction in Hosea. Everything God says to Israel is divine revelation. God's complaint against Israel is not that she lacked knowledge, spiritual or otherwise; his complaint was that Israel rejected the information given to her. That was Isaiah's complaint also, "Lord, who believes our report?"

I just want to say something... To point out to you that Beuttler is actually saying what your saying..
If I reject your knowledge, Do i lack your knowledge? Yes (EDIT: If you wanna tell me about you and your ways and i reject it. I lack your knowledge because i don't have it)
For Ex: God is working, moving and speaking today, people don't want it. They lack!
Now if your knowledge is spiritual and i reject it. What will i fill my mind and life with? Some other form of knowledge!

[BroRog]

OK, now ya got me a little confused because earlier you said this:

I guess I expected you to use scripture and not opinion of or interpretation of scripture. Believe me, I won't ignore scripture... use the scripture to explain what ya said.

I see we also have some concept (is that a correct word) differences also... while I say surrender, i don't think it's the same concept that you have. have you ever surrendered to the Holy Spirit as you were used by God for Him to heal a person or you speak a word of prophecy to them?

Does the Holy Spirit take over... no because I can keep my mouth shut or refuse to lay hands on a person and not allow myself to be used to speak or to heal.

I also never said anything against the Bible... against religion, rituals, ism... sure. But never the Bible, unless you consider my words that the Lord speaks to us in ways other then ONLY through the Bible? This means not to read the Bible at all to you? Hardly dude...

As for knowing only from the Holy Spirit... you have read the other posts in this thread concerning the Holy Spirit telling you to witness to a man at the back of the bus in a blue jacket... such "knowledge" can ONLY come from the Holy Spirit if it's a message and task from God.

Or V's testimony of what she was led to do by the Holy Spirit.. only from the Holy Spirit...

Does this help?

I've been to combat 4 times over 2 wars and a Peace Keeping mission so I understand what you say and due to my experience, what was learned in the manuals, toss most away and experience keeps you alive. The basics, basics and fundamentals work... but we're discussing a relationship with God, allot is spiritual in nature so, as I brought out in a post earlier... if the Bible says we are to go out into the world, speak the Gospel and heal, speak in new tongues, cast out demons, be protected from poison... ummmm, how? Find me the scripture that instructs us how to do this? Only through the Holy Spirit dude... we don't need to know, just surrender and let the Holy Spirit do His job to glorify God.

But then if you did, you'd be labeled a charismatic then...

I came to this thread thinking that the subject would be a comparison between knowing about God and knowing God. Instead, the focus of the discussion has centered on the first hand knowledge of the supernatural. In a previous post I pointed out Jesus' ideas concerning first hand knowledge of the supernatural as it pertains to "knowing him".

To repeat he says,

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

Jesus is warning you that first hand knowledge of the supernatural is not the same thing as knowing Jesus. Contrary to your posts which tell us that we must be led by the Spirit in order to know Jesus, Jesus' is telling you that being led by the Spirit is no guarantee of knowing him. There will be people who were following the Spirit around whom Jesus will disavow.

As for the being led by the Holy Spirit myself, I'm being led by the Holy Spirit right now to warn you of these things.

Look, the difference between knowing about God and knowing God isn't the difference between head knowledge and first hand experiences. The difference is between those who study the scriptures and those who live by them. The difference is between those who guard, protect, and defend the scriptures and those who listen to what the scriptures teach and "do business" with God through them. Those who know God are those who believe God and base life on what he says. If Jesus says, love your enemies, I love my enemies and pray for them and treat them with kindness and respect. If Jesus says to forgive those who persecute me, I forgive those who persecute me. And on it goes.

It isn't about giving a woman $5 at the direction of the Holy Spirit. It's about giving a woman $5 because you see that she needs the $5 more than you do. Maturity is all about doing things without being told to do them.

[Bladers]

Look, the difference between knowing about God and knowing God isn't the difference between head knowledge and first hand experiences. The difference is between those who study the scriptures and those who live by them. The difference is between those who guard, protect, and defend the scriptures and those who listen to what the scriptures teach and "do business" with God through them. Those who know God are those who believe God and base life on what he says. If Jesus says, love your enemies, I love my enemies and pray for them and treat them with kindness and respect. If Jesus says to forgive those who persecute me, I forgive those who persecute me. And on it goes.

It isn't about giving a woman $5 at the direction of the Holy Spirit. It's about giving a woman $5 because you see that she needs the $5 more than you do. Maturity is all about doing things without being told to do them.

Wow, there is no scripture support of what you just said. and it seems like its just exactly what his thread is addressing. What you are saying here is the knowledge about God.
I can read my bible 24/7 and do everything in it and still not know God. I know much about how he did things, his laws and so much more.
Tell that to Paul who was blameless concerning the Law. But when he met his God everything changed.
What he read became reality and he said: WHO ARE YOU?

But, tell this to Paul when he cried out I WANT TO KNOW YOU MORE and EXPERIENCE THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION..
Please tell Moses this when he cried out I WANT TO KNOW YOU[/B] and God said:I will make my nature pass before you and i will proclaim, make it known/reveal myself to you.

"Moses asked that he might come to personally know the Lord. He was not speaking about an intellectual knowledge of God. We do need to know and be informed, but Moses sought to have a personal acquaintance with a personal God, through a personal experience."

Jesus prayed, “And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent” (John 17:3). His desired is for us to know God and Eternal Life is not going to heaven, its Knowing God.

"“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6
In the days of Israel, the Lord was more interested in their “knowing” Him than in all their “sacrifices” and “gifts.” Quite exactly what you talked about, giving to the poor, loving your enemies! God is interested more that you Know him

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him."
“The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints.
“And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power.” Ephesians 1:17-19

Jesus is warning you that first hand knowledge of the supernatural is not the same thing as knowing Jesus. Contrary to your posts which tell us that we must be led by the Spirit in order to know Jesus, Jesus' is telling you that being led by the Spirit is no guarantee of knowing him. There will be people who were following the Spirit around whom Jesus will disavow.

Actually Jesus is talking about People like Saul, People who were used by God but departed from his ways. Therefore the Holy Spirit leaves them.
and no You can't know Jesus without the Holy Ghost, IMPOSSIBLE! IM-POS-SI-BLE!

[Vhayes]

I think this is what Brother Roger is meaning. This is what I'm meaning -

Hebrews 8
10 - "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

[Slug1]

I came to this thread thinking that the subject would be a comparison between knowing about God and knowing God. Instead, the focus of the discussion has centered on the first hand knowledge of the supernatural. In a previous post I pointed out Jesus' ideas concerning first hand knowledge of the supernatural as it pertains to "knowing him".

To repeat he says,

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

Jesus is warning you that first hand knowledge of the supernatural is not the same thing as knowing Jesus. Contrary to your posts which tell us that we must be led by the Spirit in order to know Jesus, Jesus' is telling you that being led by the Spirit is no guarantee of knowing him. There will be people who were following the Spirit around whom Jesus will disavow.

As for the being led by the Holy Spirit myself, I'm being led by the Holy Spirit right now to warn you of these things.

Look, the difference between knowing about God and knowing God isn't the difference between head knowledge and first hand experiences. The difference is between those who study the scriptures and those who live by them. The difference is between those who guard, protect, and defend the scriptures and those who listen to what the scriptures teach and "do business" with God through them. Those who know God are those who believe God and base life on what he says. If Jesus says, love your enemies, I love my enemies and pray for them and treat them with kindness and respect. If Jesus says to forgive those who persecute me, I forgive those who persecute me. And on it goes.

It isn't about giving a woman $5 at the direction of the Holy Spirit. It's about giving a woman $5 because you see that she needs the $5 more than you do. Maturity is all about doing things without being told to do them.

Brorog, you said this earlier:

And from what I have read so far in this thread, what Slug1 has said leads me to believe that he would be unresponsive to correction from the scriptures as he would simply ignore it, claiming that he is being led by the Spirit instead.

Can you please point out all the specific scripture so we can discuss, thanks!

The scripture you put in the last post is a warning, one that I have used as I speak to others as well. That scripture does not correct those who follow the lead of the Holy Spirit because it is God Himself leading obedient servants by His Spirit. Such servants will never hear those words.

I am fully aware of the scripture that you posted in the quote... and then you said this...

The difference is between those who study the scriptures and those who live by them.

You do know their are people who go to church every Sunday, say prayers, sing the loudest, read their Bibles to the point of memorization through their study and don't know God? Yet, they can tell you all about God based on all they read in the Bible!

So, if people live them as you say, then why do so many never experience God working through them in power? Why are churches satisfied that the Lord has never healed any person in their church, or spoke to the church through persons speaking in tongues and then others are used to translate, or lead a prophet from halfway around the world to their church to speak to them a word from the Lord?

Why?

You're also completely disregarding what the question about the $5 was... you have no idea this woman needs the money and only by the Holy Spirit are you prompted. The Lord produces good fruit through Christians and by His lead, the $5 is producing His fruit as you are obedient to HIM... Spin it any way you want... the question still stands.

Maturity is nothing but good notions and people praise themselves and others that they see doing a good "act"... the question was as the Holy Spirit leads, can He be heard, listened to, and acted upon the leading obediently. Then God can be praised because it was Him, using a vessel to produce fruit and glory to Him.

[Slug1]

It isn't about giving a woman $5 at the direction of the Holy Spirit. It's about giving a woman $5 because you see that she needs the $5 more than you do. Maturity is all about doing things without being told to do them.

Brorog, you ever read how the Lord used Ananias to go to a specific street, a specific house, and do a specific task?

This man wasn't an Apostle... just a servant (disciple) obedient to God and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Let's read the scripture and show you how your spinning of my $5 to a lady wearing a red jacket is nothing but spin and not addressing the truth of the leading of the Holy Spirit...

Acts 9:10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[b] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

So we have here an example of a man being used by God at the leading of the Holy Spirit... JUST LIKE you would be if you listened to the Holy Spirit and allowed yourself to be led to a lady in the store and give her $5, or in Bladers example, led to a bus, find the man in the back wearing a blue jacket and witness to him.

Why would you disregard this and say any "mature" person would simply see the women needed $5 when that wasn't any part of the example given to you?

At least you didn't say that you'd not follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit because in the Bible is no scripture stating giving $5 to a women in a red jacket because there are Christians that would say this... despite the example we have with the scripture presented with Ananias.

So what scripture are you gonna present that says a Christian today can't be led by the Holy Spirit to do specific tasks of God and oh, by the way... be empowered to do these tasks?

[Vhayes]

Ok - here I go... about to get in hot water in all likelihood.

One of the reasons Christians today have such a difficult time discussing being led by the Spirit is the teachings regarding the gifts of the Spirit that have been prevalent over the past century.

You can ask most Christians what they believe other Christians mean when they speak of gifts of the Spirit. The answer, at least 95% of the time is - tongues. It doesn't matter whether the person is an advocate of tongues or an ardent opponent of tongues - tongues is almost ALWAYS the focus. Yet, we are told tongues is the least of all the gifts.

In my opinion (so yes, I could be wrong) we should be far more concerned about bearing the fruit of the Spirit through His guidance than we are about what gifts we have.