Saving faith

[Sirus]

But faith is seen in the life of the seed that sprang up, but later died because it had no depth to it's root.

This is not because it was not faith but because they did not continue to have faith.
It says believe there (Mat 13:21; Luk 8:13) not believeth (Greek -> old english....eth= believe and continue believing).

[Sirus]

commitment of faith?
What would that be?
I am to walk by faith.

[Sirus]

little faith is what the bible says many times over.

It is used for those that do not have faith and that is not what we are discussing.

[Sirus]

you edited and added to your posts so...

Are you referring to NASB ©

Nope, I don't reference it.

Mark 4 The Parable of the Mustard Seed (faith to go from the smallest to being the greatest)
4:30 He also asked, “To what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable can we use to present it? 4:31 It is like a mustard seed that when sown in the ground, even though it is the smallest of all the seeds in the ground – 4:32 when it is sown, it grows up, becomes the greatest of all garden plants, and grows large branches so that the wild birds can nest in its shade.

This passage has nothing to do with the discussion. It has to do with a kingdom and it is negative.

Here
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

[Sirus]

First you are not clear in what you are saying.

Wha?
I said the word for perfect in James concerning Abraham is absolute/complete -perfect- not the word for perfect that means mature.
Was Abraham's faith matured by his works? Really?
That doesn't make any sense!
No. His faith was completed by works. He proved it. He proved he really believed because of his works. Done deal. Complete. Finished.

[IsItLove?]

It is used for those that do not have faith and that is not what we are discussing.

Really, so Jesus disciples did not have faith?

Mat 16:8
When Jesus learned of this, he said, “You who have such little faith! Why are you arguing among yourselves about having no bread?
Mat 8:26
But he said to them, “Why are you cowardly, you people of little faith?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it was dead calm.
Mat 14:31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?”

How is it that one is strong in faith?
NASB ©
biblegateway Rom 4:20
yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

How is it that one is full of faith?
Act 6:5 The proposal pleased the entire group, so they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit

How is it that some may be lacking in faith?
Th 3:10 We pray earnestly night and day to see you in person and make up what may be lacking in your faith.

What is meant by proportion to his faith?
Rom 12:6 And we have different gifts 1 according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith.

What is meant by having all faith?
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Does faith grow?
2Co 10:15 Nor do we boast beyond certain limits in the work done by others, but we hope that as your faith continues to grow, our work may be greatly expanded among you according to our limits,

Is this not a progressive faith?
2Th 1:3 We ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters, 1 and rightly so, because your faith flourishes more and more and the love of each one of you all for one another is ever greater

2Co 8:7 But as you excel in everything – in faith, in speech, in knowledge, and in all eagerness and in the love from us that is in you – make sure that you excel in this act of kindness too.

[IsItLove?]

you edited and added to your posts so...Nope, I don't reference it.

This passage has nothing to do with the discussion. It has to do with a kingdom and it is negative.

Here
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Yes the great faith of the little seed, not the faith the size of the seed.
Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Yes the great faith of the little seed, not a little faith the size of the little seed.
Remember elsewhere in scripture we have Jesus associating mustard seeds with great faith.

[IsItLove?]

This is not because it was not faith but because they did not continue to have faith.
It says believe there (Mat 13:21; Luk 8:13) not believeth (Greek -> old english....eth= believe and continue believing).

I can accept that, but what about it having no depth being the cause?
Are we seeing a quantitative statement about faith here?

[Freek]

If you got saved how could it be wrong?

I know. That is why the "conditions" in the OP is confusing. Some of those happen after you have been born again.

How can you be expected to know that which you have not been taught? Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. Jesus sought you and saved you how can that be wrong?

I still had a choice in the matter though.

[Sirus]

Really, so Jesus disciples did not have faith?

Mat 16:8
When Jesus learned of this, he said, “You who have such little faith! Why are you arguing among yourselves about having no bread?
Mat 8:26
But he said to them, “Why are you cowardly, you people of little faith?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it was dead calm.
Mat 14:31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?”

These are not about salvation.

How is it that one is strong in faith?
NASB ©
biblegateway Rom 4:20
yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

Made strong can be one of the meanings of that Greek word -endunamoō. The KJV says 'was strong'. There's no reason either in the OT accounts or the text here to choose a progressive faith.

How is it that one is full of faith?
Act 6:5 The proposal pleased the entire group, so they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit

Good report. Blameless in all areas. Trustworthy.

How is it that some may be lacking in faith?
Th 3:10 We pray earnestly night and day to see you in person and make up what may be lacking in your faith.

Still had things to learn.

What is meant by proportion to his faith?
Rom 12:6 And we have different gifts 1 according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith.

Everyone will not accomplish the same things.

What is meant by having all faith?
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Can anyone understand all mysteries, and have all knowledge? Of course not. The point being made is that faith w/o words is dead.

Does faith grow?
2Co 10:15 Nor do we boast beyond certain limits in the work done by others, but we hope that as your faith continues to grow, our work may be greatly expanded among you according to our limits,

He needs to move on to take the gospel to others but not until they are established in the faith. When they understand the faith better, he can move on (v16).

Is this not a progressive faith?
2Th 1:3 We ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters, 1 and rightly so, because your faith flourishes more and more and the love of each one of you all for one another is ever greater

No.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
.....................
1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1Th 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

2Co 8:7 But as you excel in everything – in faith, in speech, in knowledge, and in all eagerness and in the love from us that is in you – make sure that you excel in this act of kindness too.

I don't know why you posted this one.

[Sirus]

I can accept that, but what about it having no depth being the cause?
Are we seeing a quantitative statement about faith here?

I don't think so. Isn't it just that the ground is too hard?

[IsItLove?]

Everyone will not accomplish the same things.

Honestly, this is not an answer to the question.
The idea here is our works are in proportion to our faith.
If our faith is lacking, so are the works.

Can anyone understand all mysteries, and have all knowledge? Of course not. The point being made is that faith w/o words is dead.

Of course, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me".
Granted that would require a great faith, to believe God for such a great thing.
Don't forget, regarding our capacity for good, we have God!

Makes me think, if all anything took was faith without regard to proportion I would have to believe almost no one has faith.
Otherwise I expect we would be seeing at least a few mountains being picked up an thrown into the sea.

He needs to move on to take the gospel to others but not until they are established in the faith. When they understand the faith better, he can move on (v16).

OK, so they continue to grow in faith until established in faith.
Makes sense to me.
But if it was merely about knowledge why would he not just say they need to grow in the knowledge of the faith, so they might have the faith (or an established faith)?
Are you implying that faith grows in proportion to knowledge (could it be)?
Or that those lacking the full knowledge of the faith are lacking the faith, some how not established?

No.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
.....................
1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1Th 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

Well yes, our works should flourish when our faith flourishes.
They must be together to bring about life.

I don't know why you posted this one.

Because it says you are to excel in faith, just as in knowledge and love.
The word for excel means: to abound, to overflow, beyond measure also like a bud opening into a full blown flower ( a statement regarding the maturity (perfection) or full to overflowing of faith)

I believe what you are arguing for is a qualitative view of faith, that faith in God through Jesus Christ is the faith.
I am looking at the quantitative, where we must grow, excel and increase in that faith until all doubts, all shrinking back is gone.

[IsItLove?]

I don't think so. Isn't it just that the ground is too hard?

Well can we agree that there was life?

I understand the hard ground as a hard heart, but there could be much more going on there.

After looking at the Greek it seems a better translation would be that the didn't take root.
The root part could not penetrate the hard heart.
Like the seed being the word that entered the mind.
so it might be a picture of someone who knows and does not believe.

So the only life I see here now is the life that was in the seed.

But what about the one who grew up among the thorns.
Is there not the life of the seed growing up (some faith)
Or is there no faith because the thorns (the cares of this world) where not removed?

One might say the same of the virgins who did not have the oil
It speaks to me of the light of their life going out, and not having the oil of the spirit to keep them lit in the darkness as they went out to meet the bridegroom.

[Sirus]

Honestly, this is not an answer to the question.
The idea here is our works are in proportion to our faith.
If our faith is lacking, so are the works.

It is an answer. The answer is that Romans 12 does not speak of a growing or lacking faith. It does not say if all you can do now is x, it's ok, grow and you can do y, grow some more and you can do z. That's not what it says at all. What it says is...

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Makes me think, if all anything took was faith without regard to proportion I would have to believe almost no one has faith.
Otherwise I expect we would be seeing at least a few mountains being picked up an thrown into the sea.

Happens all the time. Maybe there's a reason you don't see it?

OK, so they continue to grow in faith until established in faith.
Makes sense to me.
But if it was merely about knowledge why would he not just say they need to grow in the knowledge of the faith, so they might have the faith (or an established faith)?
Are you implying that faith grows in proportion to knowledge (could it be)?
Or that those lacking the full knowledge of the faith are lacking the faith, some how not established?

No, 'in the faith' not 'in faith'.
He did tell the church at Corinth it was about knowledge.
Faith doesn't grow. Knowledge does. Take any relationship. As your knowledge about an individual increases you can trust the person more. Trusting more doesn't mean the trust has grown, just that your ability to trust them has grown because of knowledge. The trust remains the same.

Well yes, our works should flourish when our faith flourishes.
They must be together to bring about life.

Their faith did not flourish in themselves to cause their works to flourish. You need to read it again. Their works cause their faith to be known regionally -flourish.

Because it says you are to excel in faith, just as in knowledge and love.
The word for excel means: to abound, to overflow, beyond measure also like a bud opening into a full blown flower ( a statement regarding the maturity (perfection) or full to overflowing of faith)

abound in faith says nothing about faith growing

I believe what you are arguing for is a qualitative view of faith, that faith in God through Jesus Christ is the faith.

I didn't say anything about quality.

I am looking at the quantitative, where we must grow, excel and increase in that faith until all doubts, all shrinking back is gone.

This sounds strange to me. Doubts and shrinking back? What do you mean? Doubts and shrinking back concerning what?

[Sirus]

Well can we agree that there was life?

Life is in the seed before it is sown. The seed is the word of God.

After looking at the Greek it seems a better translation would be that the didn't take root.
The root part could not penetrate the hard heart.
Like the seed being the word that entered the mind.
so it might be a picture of someone who knows and does not believe.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

So the only life I see here now is the life that was in the seed.

Well, it says believe for a while then fall away.

But what about the one who grew up among the thorns.
Is there not the life of the seed growing up (some faith)
Or is there no faith because the thorns (the cares of this world) where not removed?

There's faith in all three cases.

One might say the same of the virgins who did not have the oil
It speaks to me of the light of their life going out, and not having the oil of the spirit to keep them lit in the darkness as they went out to meet the bridegroom.

If this were an acceptable interpretation, what would it have to do with progressive faith?