Matthew 12: 7-8

**truthseeker2** · Feb 7th 2010, 06:27 PM

I've often heard and thought it was true that to condemn someone meant to make the judgment that you were going to kill them for their actions, or punish them. Not just bringing it to their attention that what they are doing is wrong.

Yet in this verse, Jesus says "you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

All the pharisees said was "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

So is calling someone out on what you believe to be wrong condemning them? I think this is important to know because it certainly would effect how I live my life.

**Sirus** · Feb 7th 2010, 06:58 PM

The punishment for breaking the Sabbath was death. The pharisees, who had a twisted unbderstanding of the Sabbath, were essentially condemning the disciples to death.

**BroRog** · Feb 7th 2010, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by truthseeker2

I've often heard and thought it was true that to condemn someone meant to make the judgment that you were going to kill them for their actions, or punish them. Not just bringing it to their attention that what they are doing is wrong.

Yet in this verse, Jesus says "you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

All the pharisees said was "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

So is calling someone out on what you believe to be wrong condemning them? I think this is important to know because it certainly would effect how I live my life.

No, calling someone out is not necessarily condemning them.

With regard to Jesus statement, . . . "you would not have condemned the innocent", (emphasis mine) the talk is about a court sentence. The Pharisees are accusing the disciples of breaking the Law, and Jesus is suggesting that the Pharisess would not have passed sentence on his disicples had they understood "I desire compassion, and not sacrifice."

In general, when Jesus speaks about judging others, he accepts the fact that we are supposed to seek righteousness and justice. He warns us, however, against selfrighteousness and expressions of strong disapproval that wish the person a place in hell. It's okay for us to identify evil and injustice when we see it.

**bunnymuldare** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:09 PM

So is calling someone out on what you believe to be wrong condemning them?

The Pharisees' motives were bad. It was not to bring anyone to righteousness. It was to condemn them by hook or by crook, so that the Pharisees could do away with the threat to their authority, namely Jesus. Jesus was condemning the Pharisees right back. Does that make him wrong? Of course not. Like he said, in this place is one greater than the temple.

Mal. 3:1-3
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, who ye delight in: behold , he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers; soap:

And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

***Brother Mark*** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by truthseeker2

I've often heard and thought it was true that to condemn someone meant to make the judgment that you were going to kill them for their actions, or punish them. Not just bringing it to their attention that what they are doing is wrong.

Yet in this verse, Jesus says "you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

All the pharisees said was "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

So is calling someone out on what you believe to be wrong condemning them? I think this is important to know because it certainly would effect how I live my life.

The only places we are told to call someone out (that I can remember) is

1. if they sin against us.
2. We are more spiritual than they are and they are overcome in a fault.
3. if we are their authority.

Maybe there are other places that mention calling out brothers/sisters concerning sin/behavior. But that's all that come to mind.

**bunnymuldare** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:23 PM

Romans 1:28 is what Paul said to the unrepentant sinners of Rome. It can't get more called out and condemning than this.

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whiperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understaneding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

In reading over the list, it seems nothing ever changes. They probably replied, "judge not, preacher." I suppose they had to turn it around on Paul somehow. Of course,in the end it finally got him killed.

***Brother Mark*** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by bunnymuldare

Romans 1:28 is what Paul said to the unrepentant sinners of Rome. It can't get more called out and condemning than this.

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whiperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understaneding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

In reading over the list, it seems nothing ever changes. They probably replied, "judge not, preacher." I suppose they had to turn it around on Paul somehow. Of course,in the end it finally got him killed.

Well, you are looking at the difference between preaching against sin and preaching against a sin to an individual, i.e. calling someone out. Romans 1 is a specific sermon aimed at sins and attitudes of people and not at the sins and attitudes of a single person individual.

**bunnymuldare** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:32 PM

Bro Mark,
What if they are abusing someone you love? I would have them condemned and feel perfectly confident about it. I think that's how Jesus felt about he Pharisees when he said you snakes, you vipers, how can you escape the fires of hell. Matthew 23:34.

Could it be that we think Jesus is 100% passive and that's how we should be, when in reality he spits it right out there for everyone to hear.

***Brother Mark*** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by bunnymuldare

Bro Mark,
What if they are abusing someone you love? I would have them condemned and feel perfectly confident about it. I think that's how Jesus felt about he Pharisees when he said you snakes, you vipers, how can you escape the fires of hell. Matthew 23:34.

Could it be that we think Jesus is 100% passive and that's how we should be, when in reality he spits it right out there for everyone to hear.

Now you are talking about the difference between preaching to those who are condemned already and those personally in your life. I assumed the OP was about a Christian brother.

Anyway, if they are abusnig someone, then doesn't that fall under Galatians 6:1?

And keep in mind the difference between judging righteously and condemnation.

**bunnymuldare** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:38 PM

Yes, judging righteously, always using God's word. I have a problem with lawmakers that write laws that go against the laws of God. I will gladly tell them so. Abortion is an example.
Snakes, vipers all. some tings are worth fighting for.

***Brother Mark*** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by bunnymuldare

Yes, judging righteously, always using God's word. I have a problem with lawmakers that write laws that go against the laws of God. I will gladly tell them so. Abortion is an example.
Snakes, vipers all. some tings are worth fighting for.

Well, Jesus didn't call the Roman law makers vipers. He called those with religious virtuol vipers. He came down hard on the religious crowd that condemned repentant sinners harshly without understanding grace and mercy. He also came down hard on those that had religious convictions they preached that did not line up with scripture. And he came down hard on those that preached rightly with wrong heart and motives.

Having said that, abortion should be outlawed for sure.

**bunnymuldare** · Feb 8th 2010, 03:50 PM

I think judging is not as simple a subject as just saying don't do it.
Ecclesiasties 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Jesus showed tremendous restraint at times, and at other times, did not mince words. Maybe we just have to chose our moments wisely.

***Brother Mark*** · Feb 8th 2010, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by bunnymuldare

I think judging is not as simple a subject as just saying don't do it.
Ecclesiasties 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Jesus showed tremendous restraint at times, and at other times, did not mince words. Maybe we just have to chose our moments wisely.

Jesus was ready to die for those who sinned. If we have such a heart, then speaking against sin in an individual's life might be a worthwhile endeavor.

**bunnymuldare** · Feb 8th 2010, 04:54 PM

Can't say I'd be willing to die for Barney Frank. But, I'd gladly tell people why he shouldn't be in office. He already knows what we Christians, or more importantly, what Jesus thinks of his policies. I don't think he much cares. He cares about as much as Ted Kennedy. O man. There I go speaking ill of the dead. I suppose Judas has gotten an earful since his death and nobody's crying about that.