When consequences feel like punishment

**CaptainM** · Mar 2nd 2010, 04:59 PM

We know that as Christians we no longer have to fear the punishment for our sins. The Bible says the punishment for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ (Rom 6:23). But we still must sometimes face the consequences of our past sin.

Example: a Christian woman struggling with infertility might feel her barrenness is a result of previous sexual sin. But how can she know her infertility is a consequence? What if she has no visible/medical signs of anything wrong, but is simply unable to concieve? Is she impatient? Is she being punished? Is this a consequence to her previous sin?

So the question is: How do we know if the pains we sometimes experience in life are consequences to previous sin, or just trials? And if they are consequences to previous sin, why do they feel as punishment?

**Vhayes** · Mar 3rd 2010, 01:23 AM

Romans 8
28 - And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Our Father does not punish (looking back at the past) He disciplines (looking forward to the future). He always, always wants what is best for us.

**Gard** · Mar 3rd 2010, 04:20 PM

The question you are asking has no easy answer. Yes, we all pay the consequences for our sins, but it is not punishment. Many people mistakenly feel that since our sins are forgiven, that we should also escape the consequences for those sins. But it doesn't work that way. How could we learn from our past mistakes if we never paid a price for them? An extreme example....if I murder someone, I will go to prison. God will forgive me if I sincerely repent of my actions, but I will still be in prison. He does not hand out "get out of jail free" cards.

I know that it sometimes feels like punishment, but in reality, it teaches us that our sins can have far reaching consequences that we do not see at the time.

**CaptainM** · Mar 3rd 2010, 04:26 PM

It is a curious question that may have different answers depending on the circumstances. The question that was posed to me was this: How would you respond to a non-believer if he/she asked if her terminal illness is due to God's displeasure? How about the same circumstance in a believer's life?

I wanted to know what the rest of the community thinks.

**Vhayes** · Mar 3rd 2010, 05:50 PM

We all die physically. How is that a sign of God's displeasure?

***theBelovedDisciple*** · Mar 4th 2010, 01:24 AM

So are you saying that even after Jesus SAves... He has forgiven and forgotten.. that He'll still punish somebody for what they did in the Past? that sounds like double jeopardy .. and not the Christ I know...God manfiest in the flesh..

listen to what the Psalmist tells us under the direction of the Holy Ghost..

The LORD [is] merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

He will not always chide: neither will he keep [his anger] for ever.

He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

For as the heaven is high above the earth, [so] great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

As far as the east is from the west, [so] far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Like as a father pitieth [his] children, [so] the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

He Forgives and Forgets.. and starts the Person a New.... not beating and punishing the person for something He has forgiven them for..

'he hath not rewarded us according to our iniqutities'... this is Truth..

**Dani H** · Mar 4th 2010, 02:04 AM

There are things that come attached to living on a sinful planet, in an environment that isn't exactly condusive to living in a bubble unscathed.

In the world we will have tribulation. We will. It's been promised. It's also been promised that we would never be forsaken or left behind because He has already overcome the world.

I think people like to find another reason for certain events, because having to accept trials without an obvious root cause of our own doing, means we have no power to undo it by going back and repenting or fixing or repairing. All we're left with is praising God in them and living righteously and trusting Him to do as He wishes, which can prove infinitely more difficult than wanting to believe we're being punished for something and playing connect-the-dots in our own heads.

**CaptainM** · Mar 4th 2010, 03:00 PM

Okay, I'm not being clear. Let me try something different. How do you counsel a new/young believer in this situation?

Imagine this person who is saved. They turned to Christ at some point in their life, repented of their sins and are trusting Him as Savior. He/she feels forgiven, believes God has forgiven him/her from all past, present and future sins, and has reserved a place for him/her in His kingdom. But this person has been diagnosed with a medical condition he/she was suspicious of for years that may or may not be degenerative. It causes this person great pain and suffering. It costs financially to maintain. Some days are bad, some are good. Is this a consequence for past sin? Afterall, the symptoms were showing when this person lived in sin...

There is also no proof that it is linked to past sin so it cannot be answered. Maybe it is a consequence, maybe it is not. We do not know the mind of God. But this person is struggling and cannot rise above it. It is ruining this persons spiritual life. It is ruining this persons ability to maintain certain relationships with family & friends. It is causing this person to withdrawl from God, not turn to God.

I have given you a non-specific example of someone that I have been talking with for the past several months dealing with a very similar situation. In my mind I can understand it from a Hebrews 12 point of view, but this person cannot see why God would allow him/her to suffer. How do you help them move from A to B? It seems to me that only God healing this person would fix them, but I happen to believe the real issue is spiritual, not medical/physical.

**Vhayes** · Mar 4th 2010, 03:17 PM

It's the consequences of living in a fallen world. Again, we all doe physically. A persons circumstances should not dictate their spiritual condition. That's like a child telling their father because they do not have the shiniest bicycle on the street, their dad doesn't love them - they are completely disregarding the fact they have a bicycle that was custom made for them as well as all the other 'things" needed to keep the child healthy.

II Corinthians 12
9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
10 - Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

This part confuses me:

I have given you a non-specific example of someone that I have been talking with for the past several months dealing with a very similar situation. In my mind I can understand it from a Hebrews 12 point of view, but this person cannot see why God would allow him/her to suffer. How do you help them move from A to B? It seems to me that only God healing this person would fix them, but I happen to believe the real issue is spiritual, not medical/physical.

If God allowed Paul to suffer, why would he not allow this person to suffer?

Does this person have unconfessed sin in their life? Why do you think it is "spiritual" and what does that mean?

**nebula_omega** · Mar 4th 2010, 05:17 PM

To steal a line from a movie: "You might be square with the Lord, but the state of Mississippi's a different matter."

Yes, our actions still have consequences. For example, I committed a particular sin when I was unsaved. As a result of this sin, I now have a much higher chance of getting breast cancer. Coming to the Lord didn't take away that risk factor and now I have to be hypervigilant about self-testing and whatnot.

Being children of God doesn't prevent people from being victims of crime, disease, family problems, or really anything. But being a child of God means you have Someone walking through life's trials with you.

**CaptainM** · Mar 4th 2010, 06:57 PM

Hey, I agree. I think God lets us all suffer and I think He does it to strengthen us. But I recognize I am also not the person going through this trial. I can't get in this persons mind and cannot figure out why this isn't easier to deal with. Fact is, it is hard to deal with. I say it is a part of life, suffering is also part of Christian life. It's promised that we will suffer large and small. But telling this to the other person doesn't make them feel better. As a matter of fact, it only deepens the wound.

I liked the shiny bike example. It won't help my friend but it was good for me!

Maybe I'm being too critical. Perhaps God is causing this pain in this person's life so that this person will draw to Him, even after drawing away. Maybe I'm expecting results that won't come until later in this person's life; maybe this pain is part of the refining process.

**nebula_omega** · Mar 4th 2010, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainM

Hey, I agree. I think God lets us all suffer and I think He does it to strengthen us. But I recognize I am also not the person going through this trial. I can't get in this persons mind and cannot figure out why this isn't easier to deal with. Fact is, it is hard to deal with. I say it is a part of life, suffering is also part of Christian life. It's promised that we will suffer large and small. But telling this to the other person doesn't make them feel better. As a matter of fact, it only deepens the wound.

Buckets of yes! Telling a hurting person that everyone suffers is NOT going to make them hurt less.

Want some advice? Let him/her talk. Let them talk as much as they want. And actually listen. Even if they're still talking about it after you think they should be over it, let them talk. One of my biggest pet peeves with the Christian community is people expecting others to heal quickly. It can literally take YEARS for a person to get over life-altering events like disability, childhood abuse, divorce, whatever.

**ShortStuff** · Mar 4th 2010, 07:59 PM

I have given this much thought before posting...I love the verses that have been used in this discussion.. from Hebrews 12 and from II Corinthians 12..

I will give you a little of my history so that you may understand my opinion..I had problems as a young child passing out at odd moments..then this problem seemed to go away. Then, when I was about 12, I started having some problems again..I was finally diagnosed with mild seizures and migraines..this lasted until I was about 18(which is also the age I was saved)..I stopped taking my meds as I was pregnant with my first child..no more seizures or migraines..during this time, hubby and I slipped out of church for about 5 years..then God opened our eyes and we began serving Him full force together.

During the following years, we served in any way God desired..hubby taught SS,became a deacon and then surrendered to preach..I taught SS, children's church, VBS, ladies' study..now I come to present day...I started having medical problems about the middle of last year and in September I was diagnosed with Lupus..it is a day by day struggle..some good days, some bad..my lifestyle has changed completely..I stopped my classes to become a teacher, closed my home daycare, and no longer work...

But..my eyes are more focused on God as He has brought my attention back to Him..you see, I was still serving Him in church, but I had allowed other things to move to the top of my priority list..Do I think it is a punishment? No..do I think it is going to go away? No. Does it bring me closer to Him? Yes, and I know that there is a reason for it..to make me stronger, to help me to reach someone, to make someone else's walk easier by understanding (possibly, as I am now speaking with a young woman who has an illness and is somewhat angry)...who knows?.. God does.

I know above all else that God loves me, and that He is fair and just..so if He was required to chasten me, then He did..but even if He did, He understands..see, i think about when Jesus was in the garden praying..
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Mt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.[COLOR="Red"]
You see, I know that He understands how we feel as He knew what pain was coming..so when the pain is at its worst and I cannot even breathe without it hurting, I know that Jesus knows my pain..and if He was required to endure pain although He had never sinned..how can I expect any different? I do not feel I am being punished..I have been given the promise of a new body and a wonderful home in heaven..what I deal with here on earth cannot take that away..it is as you have said..I am being refined..I grow stronger every day as I am forgiven and loved..

We all die a little every day..what matters is how we live for Him regardless of what trials are in our lives..the trials we have sometimes determine or help guide the ways in which we serve Him. For example, Miepie has a fantastic card ministry and I along with many others are able to spend much time on here due to our illnesses..I believe that many of us would be serving in a different way if not for the trials in our lives..I know that for me, I would probably still be attending school and running a home day care...instead, now I am ministering on here and leading a ladies' bible study on Tues afternoons..see, I believe there are more reasons for our trials than many think..

**JesusMySavior** · Mar 4th 2010, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Vhayes

Romans 8
28 - And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Our Father does not punish (looking back at the past) He disciplines (looking forward to the future). He always, always wants what is best for us.

Good post. Amen.

**notuptome** · Mar 4th 2010, 10:00 PM

Job answers by asking a question in Job 2:10 ...what shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil?

If God purposes to use our suffering for His glory should we not submit to it with the same joy as when He gives us many blessings? I know of many Christians who have been great witnesses of the goodness of God in some of the most trying of times. How better to witness to healthcare professionals or other patients than to suffer joyfully for the glory of God. For the Christian to die is go into the presence of Him Whom we we see now only by the eye of faith. We do not suffer as those who have no hope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger