1290 days, 1335 days (Dan. 12:10-12)

[Nihil Obstat]

"Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days."

I've read a number of commentaries on the final verses of Daniel, and I haven't been satisfied with anything they've had to offer so far. I can't help but think that this prophecy refers to the close of Antiochus IV Epiphanes' reign, given the restatement of 11:31 in 12:11, and 11:35 in 12:10, as well as the "time of the end" language of 12:4, 8-9, 13 in 10:14; 11:27, 29, 35, 40 (cf. 8:17, 19, 26). However, of the commentaries I've read, the only ones that think similarly don't believe in prophecy, and think that a Hasidean in the Maccabean era wrote this final passage, and considers these two sets of days as revisions, given the delayed 'resurrection' of 12:2-3. But this, of course, is bogus and should be rejected. Daniel himself wrote this passage, and terrifyingly-accurate prophecy is real.

What I'm looking for here is some historical information. What event took place 43 months before and after Antiochus took away the daily sacrifice? Because 12:11 is an odd sentence, I can't tell if Daniel wrote 1) that there would be 1290 days between the daily sacrifice being taken away and the abomination being set up in their place, 2) that after these two horrific events there would be 1290 days until the end, or 3) that 1290 days after the persecution of the Jews begin (v.10), Antiochus would take away the daily sacrifices.

Another thought I'm playing with is that the 1290 days and 1335 days, being 30 days and 45 days beyond 1260 days, is the "time, times, and half a time" which ends with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (12:7). Let me explain: The 30 extra days (1 lunar month) is "a time", and the 45 days beyond that (1 lunar month + 0.5 lunar month) is the "times and half a time". Just a thought I had.

Anyway. I'm eager to hear what you have to say about these things, as I've been studying this final pericope in Daniel for awhile now. Thanks all.

astro

[Cyberseeker]

I've read a number of commentaries on the final verses of Daniel, and I haven't been satisfied with anything they've had to offer so far. I can't help but think that this prophecy refers to the close of Antiochus IV Epiphanes' reign ...

Nope. Astro, your Antiochus Epiphanes thing is leading you down a bunny trail … honest.

Another thought I'm playing with is that the 1290 days and 1335 days, being 30 days and 45 days beyond 1260 days, is the "time, times, and half a time" which ends with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (12:7). Let me explain: The 30 extra days (1 lunar month) is "a time", and the 45 days beyond that (1 lunar month + 0.5 lunar month) is the "times and half a time". Just a thought I had.
astro

Yep, now you are talking! The 1335 / 1290 days is the method by which the lunar calendar (used to) synchronize with our solar one. It is a repeating formula relating to the Sabbatic calendar system. These have baffled students for years with commentaries calling them ‘unknown calculations’ and popular end-time writers dreaming up fanciful ideas as to what they might mean.

Incidentally, one of the reasons this verse is confusing is because of a translation error in the text. Most Bible versions translate Daniel 12:12 as 1335 days but that is not actually what it says! The Authorised Version (and the original Hebrew) writes, “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days,” however for the sake of simplicity, modern translators have taken the liberty of adding the two figures together. Bad move; they were separated for a reason and the meaning is better understood when they are left as they are.

[Nihil Obstat]

The Authorised Version (and the original Hebrew) writes, “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days,” however for the sake of simplicity, modern translators have taken the liberty of adding the two figures together.

Not sure I'm following you... are you claiming that the "and thirty" refers to the extra thirty days in v.11, and that there is not actually an extra forty-five days beyond those in v.12, but rather only an extra fifteen days instead?

[Nihil Obstat]

Nope. Astro, your Antiochus Epiphanes thing is leading you down a bunny trail … honest.

I totally understand why many people see this prophecy as still to take place in our future, given the resurrection language in 12:2-3, and the "worst trouble ever" language in 12:1, but I think that all of those problems have their answer - something that I plan on writing about soon.

[Cyberseeker]

Not sure I'm following you... are you claiming that the "and thirty" refers to the extra thirty days in v.11, and that there is not actually an extra forty-five days beyond those in v.12, but rather only an extra fifteen days instead?

1260 + 45 = 1305
1260 + 30 = 1290

There is no such number as 1335 in the original text. It reads 1305 plus 30 but the translators have added the two figures together because they thought they were making it easier to read. Here is the literal text:

three (shalowsh)
hundred (me'ah)
and five (chamesh)
and thirty (shĕlowshiym)

1305 and 1290 are astronomical calculations used by the prophets to synchronize the Biblical calendar with the solar cycle.

[Nihil Obstat]

1305 and 1290 are astronomical calculations used by the prophets to synchronize the Biblical calendar with the solar cycle.

Sorry, I'm still not quite grasping what it is that you're proposing here. Are you saying that 1305 is the solar number (some months consisting of 31 days), and 1290 is the lunar number (all months having only 30 days) - that they are actually one and the same?

[Cyberseeker]

The solar calendar has 365.24 days and the lunar calendar has 354.14 days however the prophets used a 360-day calendar (30-day month) and adjusted it to the solar cycle by means of 30/45 day leap year system. Have you heard of the 360-day calendar? If not, we can start a new topic about it, otherwise I can try to explain my thoughts on this topic.

Incidentally, why do you think those folks who arrived at the 1305+30 were so incredibly blessed? (Dan 12:12)

[Beckrl]

"Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days."

That sound simular to what Jesus spoke of in (Matthew 24:9,10,13)Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


Jesus then refers back to Daniel.

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Recall that the angel is revealing to Daniel the things that are inscribed in the Book of Truth ( 10:21 ). In chapter 11 and verse 2, the angel begins to reveal some of the things found in the Book of Truth. Chapter 11 reveals that there would be war between Greece and Persia , and Greece would overcome. After Alexander the Great (the mighty king) the kingdom would be divided into four smaller, weaker kingdoms. Two of those kingdoms, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids would war back and forth, affecting the Jewish people. One of the rulers of the Seleucids, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, would cause great havoc and persecution to the Jews. He is the despicable, vile person of 11:21 . However, neither the Seleucids nor the Ptolemies would continue in their rule. Another empire will rise that will speak blasphemies against God and exalt themselves higher than God ( 11:36 ). When we compare this description to what we read in Revelation 13 and 17, we see that this is the Roman empire . The Roman empire was introduced to us in 11:30 [Chittim]and they would have great power controlling most of the known world at that time ( 11:40 -45 ). This explanation fits in with the words of the angel in Daniel 10:14 that the events were concerning the Jewish people and would occur in the latter days.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Relates to Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book

Jesus speaks of the same event, for He says it was something that had not occurred since the beginning of the world, nor ever will. What Jesus was talking about is the same thing the angel is revealing to Daniel. Jesus, living in the latter days of the Jewish nation, during the days of the Roman empire spoke about the destruction of Jerusalem . Matthew 24:1-2 sets the context that Jesus is describing the signs that one stone will not be left upon another in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem . Luke 21 is a parallel passage that says, “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near”

“And at that time, your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.” Again, we must notice the group of people this event is concerning: “your people,” which to Daniel would be the Jews. The Jews that listen to the warning that Daniel is writing down would be rescued. More clearly, those who would listen to the words of Jesus concerning this destruction and follow the directions Jesus gave in Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:21-28 would be rescued from this tribulation. Those who obeyed Jesus would not be in the city when the Romans attacked.

[Nihil Obstat]

That sound simular to what Jesus spoke of in (Matthew 24:9,10,13)Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


Jesus then refers back to Daniel.

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Recall that the angel is revealing to Daniel the things that are inscribed in the Book of Truth ( 10:21 ). In chapter 11 and verse 2, the angel begins to reveal some of the things found in the Book of Truth. Chapter 11 reveals that there would be war between Greece and Persia , and Greece would overcome. After Alexander the Great (the mighty king) the kingdom would be divided into four smaller, weaker kingdoms. Two of those kingdoms, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids would war back and forth, affecting the Jewish people. One of the rulers of the Seleucids, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, would cause great havoc and persecution to the Jews. He is the despicable, vile person of 11:21 . However, neither the Seleucids nor the Ptolemies would continue in their rule. Another empire will rise that will speak blasphemies against God and exalt themselves higher than God ( 11:36 ). When we compare this description to what we read in Revelation 13 and 17, we see that this is the Roman empire . The Roman empire was introduced to us in 11:30 [Chittim]and they would have great power controlling most of the known world at that time ( 11:40 -45 ). This explanation fits in with the words of the angel in Daniel 10:14 that the events were concerning the Jewish people and would occur in the latter days.

I agree that Rome plays a part in this prophecy (both in 11:18 and 11:30). However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the distinction between 'the king of the North' and 'the king of the South' is reserved solely for the time of the Grecian Empire - and yet this language is still found in 11:40, directly after the phrase "At the time of the end."

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Relates to Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book

Jesus speaks of the same event, for He says it was something that had not occurred since the beginning of the world, nor ever will. What Jesus was talking about is the same thing the angel is revealing to Daniel. Jesus, living in the latter days of the Jewish nation, during the days of the Roman empire spoke about the destruction of Jerusalem . Matthew 24:1-2 sets the context that Jesus is describing the signs that one stone will not be left upon another in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem . Luke 21 is a parallel passage that says, “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near”

“And at that time, your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.” Again, we must notice the group of people this event is concerning: “your people,” which to Daniel would be the Jews. The Jews that listen to the warning that Daniel is writing down would be rescued. More clearly, those who would listen to the words of Jesus concerning this destruction and follow the directions Jesus gave in Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:21-28 would be rescued from this tribulation. Those who obeyed Jesus would not be in the city when the Romans attacked.

Well, Daniel did not write "nor ever shall be" - he stopped short of that. I think that Jesus was, as you yourself wrote, saying that the Romans would come against them 'similar' to when Antiochus had come against them. Besides this, the whole of ch.8 concerns the Grecian Empire, and yet is said to be about "the time of the end" (8:17, 19, 26; cf. 10:1, 14; 11:27, 29, 35, 40; 12:4, 9). Why, then, couldn't this final prophecy be of Antiochus as well?

[Nihil Obstat]

The solar calendar has 365.24 days and the lunar calendar has 354.14 days however the prophets used a 360-day calendar (30-day month) and adjusted it to the solar cycle by means of 30/45 day leap year system. Have you heard of the 360-day calendar? If not, we can start a new topic about it, otherwise I can try to explain my thoughts on this topic.

Could you give other examples of this from the Prophets? What scholarly journals support this claim? Because I'm still not following your reasoning... if there is such a thing as a "Prophet's calendar", then the solar calendar only deviates from it by 5 or 6 days, as does the lunar calendar. So even over a 3.5 year period, this still wouldn't call for 30 or 45 days of adjustment. I'm interested in what you're suggesting, but I need you to be quite a bit more thorough in your presentation and evidence.

Incidentally, why do you think those folks who arrived at the 1305+30 were so incredibly blessed? (Dan 12:12)

Presently I'm of the thought that 12:2-3 (and the 'blessed' of 12:12) concerns the rededication of the temple at the close of Antiochus' reign (Hanukkah) - a belief that I plan on proposing (and defending, I'm sure) in a separate thread soon to come.

[Cyberseeker]

... so even over a 3.5 year period, this still wouldn't call for 30 or 45 days of adjustment. I'm interested in what you're suggesting, but I need you to be quite a bit more thorough in your presentation and evidence.

Every calendar except the Hijri has leap systems. Our western calendar adds one day every four years in February. The modern Jewish calendar adds a month (AdarII) every 3 years. However, the ancient Hebrew soli-lunar calendar was not the same as the modern Jewish soli-lunar system. It is not known exactly when the change took place but I suspect it was during the Babylonian captivity.

The ancient system was lost to Israel but the prophets retained knowledge of it. It had twelve 30-day months. Modern soli-lunar systems toggle between 29 and 30 so the old system does not require as many extra Adars. Nevertheless it does fall short of the solar dates so an 30 / 45 day adjustment was made on the Sabbath years.

You raised the matter in your opening post and asked for comments so Ive given mine. If you don't mind I would rather not go into detail on the forum. My only additional comment is that the 1290/1305 days of chapter twelve do not apply to Antiochus Epiphanes.

Cyber

[DurbanDude]

"Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days."

Frankly I don't know why this 1290 period does not match the 1260 (42 months) period mentioned elsewhere in the bible. (hey DD without an opinion) . I do feel its the same period albeit with an extra 30 days.

I agree 100% with Cyber that you are being distracted by your focus on Antiochus, he only matches prophecy until v35, thereafter Antiochus does not match the details of 35-45, this is a "similar" but end-times character, confirmed by the end-times resurrection context of 12:1-2.

This is how I see the verse:
From the "season" starting from when sacrifices were removed (crucifixion) and ending when the abomination is set up (the future antichrist) , there will be a further 1290 days until the end (the resurrection).

Although this view does not explain the extra 30 days, it can explain God's view of the timing of the ages. There are specifically timed Jewish ages of periods of 7 years and 3.5 years, and the 'gentile' age is an indefinite age embedded between the precise Jewish ages. Thus we have a precise 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry ending in the sacrifice. Then we have another 3.5 years of Jewish protection after the church age, so clearly described in Rev 12.

Daniel 12:11 brings Daniel 9:27 and Rev 12 into perspective , giving the most precise timing possible until the end of this age, exactly answering the question in Dan 12:6, how long to the end of these wonders:

From Jesus crucifixion there will be an indefinite age followed by a specific 3.5 years that will usher in the end.

[RogerW]

I believe that time frames having to do with the last days or end of time are of necessity not to be taken literally, but rather are symbolic. If literal would it not be possible for some learned men to determine the precise timing of the Second Coming of Christ? Is there any reason that from Daniel's time to the coming of Christ is 1290 days...and from Daniel's time to the end of the age 1335 days?

Many Blessings,
RW

[Cyberseeker]

If literal would it not be possible for some learned men to determine the precise timing of the Second Coming of Christ?

No, but it was possible for some learned men to determine the precise timing of the First Coming of Christ. The three wise men from the east did not climb on their camels and travel to Bethlehem just because they saw a star. They understood the astrological basis of Daniels writing.

[Beckrl]

I agree that Rome plays a part in this prophecy (both in 11:18 and 11:30). However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the distinction between 'the king of the North' and 'the king of the South' is reserved solely for the time of the Grecian Empire - and yet this language is still found in 11:40, directly after the phrase "At the time of the end."

The time of the end would refer back to how many days and also would account for the length of persecution that many would go through(Daniel 11:35, 12:10).

Now what should be understood is that the king of the north plays a role in both prophecies those of 2300 evening and morning. Those I think all would agree is concerning Antiochus that the sanctuary was to be cleaned at the end and then we have the prophecy of 1290/1305 to the end of this prophecy of persecution which again comes from the northern king. This is the prophecy I believe that Jesus was refering to in matthew 24:15

In this prophecy Daniel isn't told that his people would clean the sanctuary, but the angel reveals that his people would be scattered and then the end or these things shall be finished. Which I see to be fulfilled by Nero and the destruction of Jerusalem. Those that had the understanding of Daniel and what Jesus told them is those that had understanding [11:33-35, 12:10] and intructed many to flee the city before it's destruction those number of days refer to that time frame from seeing the sacrifice taken away and the adomination set up that maketh desolate [destruction] 1290 days, the blessed is he that wait [endure] unto the end 1305 or 1335.

Just to add to some clarification when it speakes of Edom, Moad, and the children of Ammon that shall escape it is refering to those as the wilderness that the woman would flee unto. (Rev.12:6) which speaks of her being feed by God for 1260 days. This prophecy of the woman [faithful Israel] is after her birth of her son [man child]

Well, Daniel did not write "nor ever shall be" - he stopped short of that. I think that Jesus was, as you yourself wrote, saying that the Romans would come against them 'similar' to when Antiochus had come against them. Besides this, the whole of ch.8 concerns the Grecian Empire, and yet is said to be about "the time of the end" (8:17, 19, 26; cf. 10:1, 14; 11:27, 29, 35, 40; 12:4, 9). Why, then, couldn't this final prophecy be of Antiochus as well?

Chapter 8 is indeed speaks about the Grecian empire in particular the Seleucid empire of the Litter Horn [Antiochus] but again the end of what?
If we look at chapter 11:36 it tells us that the willful king shall prosper till the indignation [time of judgment] be accomplised: for that is determined shall be done. Those word relate back to chapter 9:26,27 the time of the destruction of the sanctuary with a flood [army] and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This or these two visions are really not of much about the king of the north, but about Daniel's people. Daniel 10:14