Is It Sinful to Lie in All Cases?

[Freek]

Yes, you are aware of the exceptions to the rule. We have posted them here. Foe example; Mat 12:1-6; Josh 9; the story of Rahab and Exo 1:16-20; but in spite that God stood up and clapped and said: BRAVO ! when they lied, you still insist they sinned.

The ultmate one is John 5:16-18.

There is nothing else we can do but show you the Scriptures. John 8:43 comes to mind.

Shalom

You still have to show from Scripture that a born again man or woman lied and it was condoned. You mentioned John 8:43. Please read verse 44 also.

[Athanasius]

My problem with this is that the moment Christians find one hint of a semi-truth in the Bible they're off lying left-right-and-centre.

Let's leave deviant behavior (or "more deviant," if you prefer) out of this.

I agree. Also if we can justify lying in certain situations, that means we can also justify any other sin. Would it be okay to steal, murder, commit adultery or perharps even deny our Lord if by doing so we could save lifes?

No, it doesn't, necessarily. You're arguing atop that slippery slope.

[MTK]

Let's leave deviant behavior (or "more deviant," if you prefer) out of this.



No, it doesn't, necessarily. You're arguing atop that slippery slope.

Xel'Naga, do you agree that we should be conformed to the image of Christ, that we should live our lives as He would?
Do you also agree that there is no lie or deception in Christ? If you do agree, isn't it then clear that there is no room for any lies in our lives?

[EarlyCall]

Is it wrong to lie in all circumstances? It is best to first go to the word of God and see if we have what I call living examples. God lived out His word through others throughout the writing of His word. And some in this thread have given good examples.

I also like to use logic. I believe it is permissible to serve in the military and to kill the enemy in a time of war. I will not debate this issue in this thread. Therefore, let's say that someone is captured and interrogated by the enemy. They did not sin when they killed the enemy but would sin if they lied to the enemy? The basis is war,which justifies killing the enemy and by the same rationale justifies lying to the enemy.

[Servant89]

You still have to show from Scripture that a born again man or woman lied and it was condoned. You mentioned John 8:43. Please read verse 44 also.

Ohhhh.... Oh! Oh! Oh! You got me good!!!!!!!!!! I am on the floor gasping for air... Good one!!! Don't you love the WORD? I love it! Thanks. Let me recover, give me a minute. Someone please call the paramedics...

Shalom

[Servant89]

Xel'Naga, do you agree that we should be conformed to the image of Christ, that we should live our lives as He would?
Do you also agree that there is no lie or deception in Christ? If you do agree, isn't it then clear that there is no room for any lies in our lives?

But when it comes to putting people first, putting them above our resume in the law, Jesus did that.

John 5:16-18 states Jesus broke the Sabbath rest (by working) in order to put people first. In Mat 12:1-6 Jesus defended himself by stating there are times that doing that which is unlawful is the right thing to do. If God said there are exceptions to the rule, there are. And born again Christians are not under the law (2Cor 3:1-8). We do business based on love.

Shalom

[Servant89]

We all agree we need to tell the truth, at least 99.9% of the time. The argument comes with some exceptions.

Shall I tell the truth about where Christians are so the enemy finds them and kill them? Shall I? If I do that, I care more for my resume in the law than fellow Christians.

Shalom

[Athanasius]

Xel'Naga, do you agree that we should be conformed to the image of Christ, that we should live our lives as He would?
Do you also agree that there is no lie or deception in Christ? If you do agree, isn't it then clear that there is no room for any lies in our lives?

I agree with all of the above, but no, it is not clear, especially when you have two principles in conflict: the command not to lie, and the command not to murder. That's the reality of a fallen world, and part of this reality is that there may be cases where we may need to lie, especially to save an innocent life. And if God damns me for lying to a genocidal government, so be it.

[Firstfruits]

Okay, let's go wth the idea that God says, "Do Not Lie. Period"

Now, how would you answer the question "What are Christians to do when faced with the persecution of others?" Note: I said "others" not ourselves as I believe the Hebrews chapter 10 verses I previously posted indicated we should stand by joyfully on such occasions. But, when a Christian sees a whole people group such as the Jews or Mentally Ill being persecuted and killed...what is to be our response? We can't lie so that leaves out hiding them (Rahab and the ten Booms). It also means we can't lie about not killing them when ordered (Israelite midwives).

It would seem that the Hebrews passage suggests standing with them and laying down our lives with them. Is that the right or only stance to take? What do you think God's word says?

This is what the word of God says.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Firstfruits

[MTK]

We all agree we need to tell the truth, at least 99.9% of the time. The argument comes with some exceptions.

Shall I tell the truth about where Christians are so the enemy finds them and kill them? Shall I? If I do that, I care more for my resume in the law than fellow Christians.

Shalom

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.*If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" 1John 1 5-6

There is no darkness in God. To lie is of darkness. There is no lie or deception in God, nor should there be in us if are His children. If we walk in the Spirit of Truth we always speak the truth.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

Lying is of the devil, how could then children of holy God lie?

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1John 2:6

If we truely love Jesus, we will walk as He walked and I'm sure Jesus spoke the truth 100% of the time.

[Firstfruits]

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.*If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" 1John 1 5-6

There is no darkness in God. To lie is of darkness. There is no lie or deception in God, nor should there be in us if are His children. If we walk in the Spirit of Truth we always speak the truth.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

Lying is of the devil, how could then children of holy God lie?

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1John 2:6

If we truely love Jesus, we will walk as He walked and I'm sure Jesus spoke the truth 100% of the time.

Agreed, we must know to whom we yield.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[MTK]

I agree with all of the above, but no, it is not clear, especially when you have two principles in conflict: the command not to lie, and the command not to murder. That's the reality of a fallen world, and part of this reality is that there may be cases where we may need to lie, especially to save an innocent life. And if God damns me for lying to a genocidal government, so be it.

We never have to lie to save an innocent life, everything is in the hands of God. Shouldn't we trust Him with our own and others lives if we have faith that He is truely all mighty and nothing is impossible to Him.
And in a situation you described, instead of lying we can choose not to say anything i.e reveal the location of other believers in hiding. And if we were to crack under torture and reveal where they are hiding, we wouldn't be held responsible for their deaths. Lord also can give us the strength to endure that torture so that His own stay safe.

[Firstfruits]

We never have to lie to save an innocent life, everything is in the hands of God. Shouldn't we trust Him with our own and others lives if we have faith that He is truely all mighty and nothing is impossible to Him.
And in a situation you described, instead of lying we can choose not to say anything i.e reveal the location of other believers in hiding. And if we were to crack under torture and reveal where they are hiding, we wouldn't be held responsible for their deaths. Lord also can give us the strength to endure that torture so that His own stay safe.

According to Jesus when the antichrist shall come at the end, those that worship him will be betraying those that do not worship the antichrist.

Mt 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Firstfruits

[MTK]

Agreed, we must know to whom we yield.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Exactly. If we are His own, in Him and we know Him through His Spirit, He will teach us about everything and we don't have to walk in sin, even in the most humanly difficult situations as described above, we can through Him walk in the truth not giving any room to sin in our life.

God bless you to brother/sister !

[Firstfruits]

Exactly. If we are His own, in Him and we know Him through His Spirit, He will teach us about everything and we don't have to walk in sin, even in the most humanly difficult situations as described above, we can through Him walk in the truth not giving any room to sin in our life.

God bless you to brother/sister !

Thanks MTK,

God bless you too!

It is brother.

Firstfruits