2 cor 5:19

[anthony57]

2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Paul in the gospel that He preached, reminds the Corinthians believers, that God was in Christ reconciling the World [ Jew and Gentile Elect] to Himself NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM !

My question is, when was God in Christ doing this ?

Was it while Christ was hanging on the cross, pouring His soul out unto death , when darkness covered the land for those 3 momentous hours ?

Or could it have been before this grand historical event in time ?

What was God the Father doing when He set up His own Son as Mediator from everlasting ?

Prov 8:


22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When He made the Everlasting Covenant of Grace with Him, in the prospect of having to shed His blood [ heb 13:20] when there took place a council of peace. [ ezk 37:26] whence there was a counsel of peace established.

Was not God then reconciling His chosen ones to Himself, was it not then that His Son was appointed to bear their sins , which in time they would commit ; and then was it not he was reckoned to be the Lord God our Righteousness ? Did not God then transfer those sins of His people, from them to Him, and then impute His righteousness to them ?

Now many will conclude that God merely purposed to do these things, but however, purposing and doing are the same to God. This principle is seen here in rom 4:

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


Besides, this was not a matter of exercising His Might or Ability, but an act of His will [desire]. The Non Imputation of sin and the imputation of righteousness, are not acts of His Power, but His will of desire, therefore His desire not to impute sin, is the non imputation of it, and His will to impute righteousness, is the imputation of it.

[Sirus]

2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Paul in the gospel that He preached, reminds the Corinthians believers, that God was in Christ reconciling the World [ Jew and Gentile Elect] to Himself NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM !

My question is, when was God in Christ doing this ?

Was it while Christ was hanging on the cross, pouring His soul out unto death , when darkness covered the land for those 3 momentous hours ?

Or could it have been before this grand historical event in time ?

Christ was/is God.
It means 'the purpose of God was in Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself' -the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ --Eph 3:4, Col 2:2. Which will and purpose was hid from the foundation of the world.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
............
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
............
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according tohis good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
.........
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
.........
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
........
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
...........
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose [to bring Christ in the flesh through Israel] have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
..............
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
.........
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
............
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

What was God the Father doing when He set up His own Son as Mediator from everlasting ?

Prov 8:


22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

He was showing and setting up His wisdom for His purpose and will.
Prov 8 is about 'wisdom' -possessed -set up. See above and

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Was not God then reconciling His chosen ones to Himself, was it not then that His Son was appointed to bear their sins , which in time they would commit ; and then was it not he was reckoned to be the Lord God our Righteousness ? Did not God then transfer those sins of His people, from them to Him, and then impute His righteousness to them ?

Besides, this was not a matter of exercising His Might or Ability, but an act of His will [desire]. The Non Imputation of sin and the imputation of righteousness, are not acts of His Power, but His will of desire, therefore His desire not to impute sin, is the non imputation of it, and His will to impute righteousness, is the imputation of it.

world. The chosen are those that believe.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

[anthony57]

For me to suppose that it was a matter of the everlasting covenant that then, God was reconciling the world [ jn 3:17] to Himself, is not an out of the blue conclusion, for heb 13:19-20 points to the existence of such a covenant, which was later also known as the new covenant, not because it was new, but because of its propriety over the old covenant with Gods national covenant people , isarael of the flesh.

Heb 7 22 speaks of Jesus as being the surety of a better covenant heb 7:

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament [covenant].

Which Covenant I believe is the everlasting covenant and later called the New Covenant. He is called the Surety of it because when it was made between Him and the Father [ Holy Ghost as witness] from eternity, He then purposed in His heart to draw nigh unto God, to offer of Himself to Him, as the surety of His people, to bear their sins, and fulfill all righteousness in their stead and behalf, and this agreed with the Fathers will, and He was well pleased with Him. The Father was well pleased and accepted Christ as the surety of all the elect [ of all time under both testaments] see ps 40 & heb 10

[theBelovedDisciple]

For me to suppose that it was a matter of the everlasting covenant that then, God was reconciling the world [ jn 3:17] to Himself, is not an out of the blue conclusion, for heb 13:19-20 points to the existence of such a covenant, which was later also known as the new covenant, not because it was new, but because of its propriety over the old covenant with Gods national covenant people , isarael of the flesh.

Heb 7 22 speaks of Jesus as being the surety of a better covenant heb 7:

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament [covenant].

Which Covenant I believe is the everlasting covenant and later called the New Covenant. He is called the Surety of it because when it was made between Him and the Father [ Holy Ghost as witness] from eternity, He then purposed in His heart to draw nigh unto God, to offer of Himself to Him, as the surety of His people, to bear their sins, and fulfill all righteousness in their stead and behalf, and this agreed with the Fathers will, and He was well pleased with Him. The Father was well pleased and accepted Christ as the surety of all the elect [ of all time under both testaments] see ps 40 & heb 10

I pretty much agree with your post.. when I read.. it was like you were taking the words out of my mouth! thanks

all the way down thru His Life and Ministry... Jesus the Christ , God manifest in the flesh.. you had the testimony and witness written in Scripture.. by those who stood around Jesus..as the Father spoke..

this is my Beloved Son, In whom I am well pleased...

and then whe He Gave Himself on that Bloody TRee...

Looking up to Heaven and saying...

It is Finished.....

then Father, Into thine Hands I commend My spirit......

walked 33 years without sinning, taking on flesh and blood as It behooved Him to be made like His Brethern.. and He by the Grace of God.. tasting death for every living soul ever created.....

from the Garden it was made clear...

Father , not My Will, but thine be done.. knowing what lie ahead of Him.. and this done for His Own.. as He loved not His Life unto death... wow...

He Truly is a Better Surety... because God cannot Fail nor lie.. and He proved it even by Sending His Son to put on flesh.. and He did it perfectly in flesh and blood!

[Butch5]

2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Paul in the gospel that He preached, reminds the Corinthians believers, that God was in Christ reconciling the World [ Jew and Gentile Elect] to Himself NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM !

My question is, when was God in Christ doing this ?

Was it while Christ was hanging on the cross, pouring His soul out unto death , when darkness covered the land for those 3 momentous hours ?

Or could it have been before this grand historical event in time ?

What was God the Father doing when He set up His own Son as Mediator from everlasting ?

Prov 8:


22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When He made the Everlasting Covenant of Grace with Him, in the prospect of having to shed His blood [ heb 13:20] when there took place a council of peace. [ ezk 37:26] whence there was a counsel of peace established.

Was not God then reconciling His chosen ones to Himself, was it not then that His Son was appointed to bear their sins , which in time they would commit ; and then was it not he was reckoned to be the Lord God our Righteousness ? Did not God then transfer those sins of His people, from them to Him, and then impute His righteousness to them ?

Now many will conclude that God merely purposed to do these things, but however, purposing and doing are the same to God. This principle is seen here in rom 4:

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


Besides, this was not a matter of exercising His Might or Ability, but an act of His will [desire]. The Non Imputation of sin and the imputation of righteousness, are not acts of His Power, but His will of desire, therefore His desire not to impute sin, is the non imputation of it, and His will to impute righteousness, is the imputation of it.

Anthony,

Does context mean anything? Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom. There is nothing said about a covenant between the Father and the Son.

Was not God then reconciling His chosen ones to Himself,

Yes, along with the rest of mankind.

Did not God then transfer those sins of His people,

No, He did not.

and then impute His righteousness to them ?

No, He did not.

[BroRog]

My question is, when was God in Christ doing this ?

Was it while Christ was hanging on the cross, pouring His soul out unto death , when darkness covered the land for those 3 momentous hours ?

Or could it have been before this grand historical event in time ?

Paul is talking about the cross. For verification of this we have his other letters in which he makes a similar point.

Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,

Ephesians 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross

Colossians 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross;

Colossians 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--

[crossnote]

2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Paul in the gospel that He preached, reminds the Corinthians believers, that God was in Christ reconciling the World [ Jew and Gentile Elect] to Himself NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM !

My question is, when was God in Christ doing this ?

During His Incarnation.

[anthony57]

I believe it took place before the foundation, because in Gods Mind, the cross was from the foundation rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Time is no factor in Gods Mind, because He is Eternal, the death of Christ did not have to happen in time in order for God to accept its effects for His People.

Now if in the Mind of God, Christ the lamb was slain from the foundation, then the sins of those that were imputed on Him had been imputed, and the reconciliation the cross provided had been accomplished in Gods Mind, even though it was yet a future event to occur in time.

[anthony57]

butch:

Anthony,

Does context mean anything? Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom.

Yes, it means a lot, apparently it does not to you, or else you would discern that the things said about wisdom makes them a person of Intelligence, and on top of that, Christ is the Wisdom of God 1 cor 1:

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

[Sirus]

True, and Prov 8 is talking about the wisdom of God put "in Christ" from the foundation -salvation, but wisdom is not Christ. Christ is wisdom. Big difference. Follow what you wrote "Christ is the Wisdom of God 1 cor 1"

[anthony57]

Jesus christ is the wisdom of God 1 cor 1:

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Prov 8 is speaking about the wisdom of God.

[Butch5]

I believe it took place before the foundation, because in Gods Mind, the cross was from the foundation rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Time is no factor in Gods Mind, because He is Eternal, the death of Christ did not have to happen in time in order for God to accept its effects for His People.

Now if in the Mind of God, Christ the lamb was slain from the foundation, then the sins of those that were imputed on Him had been imputed, and the reconciliation the cross provided had been accomplished in Gods Mind, even though it was yet a future event to occur in time.

So you don't have any Scripture that states the effects took place before time, it is only that you think this because God planned the cross prior to the world??? Do you see why you have contradictions in your theology? You just assume, If Scripture does not say it, then you should not make doctrine based on it.

Also, no one's sins were imputed to Christ, and His righteousness was not imputed to man. There is nothing in Scripture that states that. Again, a careful reading of Scripture along with ridding yourself of assumptions will go a long way toward finding the truth of Scripture

[Butch5]

butch:



Yes, it means a lot, apparently it does not to you, or else you would discern that the things said about wisdom makes them a person of Intelligence, and on top of that, Christ is the Wisdom of God 1 cor 1:

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

apparently it does not to me??? That's pretty funny. My friend, you continue to proof text. You simply snatch a verse out of context to support what you say. If in Proverbs 8 wisdom is Christ please explain to me then who it was that created the world. According to John Christ was with God in the beginning and all things were created by Christ. Having said that let's look at proverbs 8.


Proverbs 8:20-21 ( KJV )
I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

Does this sound like Christ? Are you rich? This is talking about physical goods. I guess if one believes the prosperity gospel they could claim this is Christ.


Proverbs 8:22-24 ( KJV )
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

I guess then you do not believe that Christ is eternal??? The word "possessed" in Proverbs 8:22 means to create. By your interpretation Christ is a created being.


Proverbs 8:26-30 ( KJV )
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

If Wisdom is Christ, who then was creating the world??? According to the apostle it was Christ who was creating the world. There was someone or something with the one creating the world, two different entities are spoken of here. If you claim that Christ is wisdom here then the only one left to create is the Father, yet this contradicts what John said. So again you are left to reconcile yet another contradiction. Either you misunderstand Paul, or you misunderstand Proverbs 8 or there is a contradiction in the Scriptures. You can choose to reconcile them or you can sweep them under the carpet and continue in the defense of the doctrines of men.

[anthony57]

butch:

My friend, you continue to proof text.

Its always good to prove a point by scripture, for scripture interprets scripture, and thats why God causes His teachers to search and study to match up the different truths that complement one another.

[anthony57]

Prov 8:

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Now this would not make much sense to say wisdom was set up and it was not a person, for the hebrew word for the phrase Set up is:

nacak :
to pour out, pour, offer, cast
a) (Qal)
1) to pour out
2) to cast metal images
3) to anoint (a king)
b) (Niphal) to be anointed
c) (Piel) to pour out (as a libation)
d) (Hiphil) to pour out libations
e) (Hophal) to be poured out
2) to set, install
a) (Qal) to install
b) (Niphal) to be installed

What this means is that Christ was anointed of His Father from everlasting, to be Prophet, King and Priest of His chosen People [ the church ], to become or installed in His official capacity of Mediator.

We see on down in the chapter that His delights were with the sons of men prov 8:

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

So from everlasting, Jesus Christ was installed in His official role as the Mediator between God and Men [ 1 tim 2:5] was established.