The First and the Rest of the Dead

[John146]

But (if I'm understanding you correctly) you are maintaining the saved have been resurrected to life previously to the gwtj.

I believe Christ's resurrection in particular is the first resurrection and I believe that all believers spiritually have part in His resurrection when they are born of the Spirit. But I believe no one will be resurrected physically until the time of the gwt judgment.

[Beckrl]

I believe Christ's resurrection in particular is the first resurrection and I believe that all believers spiritually have part in His resurrection when they are born of the Spirit. But I believe no one will be resurrected physically until the time of the gwt judgment.

Hi, Eric
So how do you view the little season for Satan? Are we not resurrected at his return after the thousand years? What brings about the end of the thousand years?

[pekoe]

Hi John146

I believe Christ's resurrection in particular is the first resurrection and I believe that all believers spiritually have part in His resurrection when they are born of the Spirit. But I believe no one will be resurrected physically until the time of the gwt judgment.

So you believe the first resurrection is spiritual in nature for believers? Would you consider this;

"...they lived and reigned....but the rest of the dead 'lived not again'...." Re.20:4-5

When John says the rest "lived not again", he is comparing their resurrection to those who "lived and reigned", or the first resurrection. He appears to be saying the ones who live and reign were dead (beheaded etc) and are alive again, but the rest of the dead won't live again until the thousand years are ended.

If you believe the saved are already resurrected, you must believe we are reigning now?

[John146]

Hi, Eric
So how do you view the little season for Satan? Are we not resurrected at his return after the thousand years? What brings about the end of the thousand years?

I don't believe Christ returns right when the thousand years ends, but rather when Satan's little season ends. That is when the dead in Christ will be physically resurrected. I don't know how long that little season is, but it has to be some little period of time that occurs after the thousand years ends and before Christ returns. I don't believe it is until the fire comes down from heaven that Christ returns (2 Thess 1:7-8, 2 Peter 3:10-12). What brings about the end of the thousand years is Satan being loosed. At that point the thousand years are over and the little season begins.

[John146]

Hi John146

So you believe the first resurrection is spiritual in nature for believers?

I believe the first resurrection itself is Christ's resurrection.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

I believe to have part in the first resurrection is to have part in Christ's resurrection. We have part in His resurrection when we are born again and experience newness of spiritual life.

Col 2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Rom 6
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 2
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Would you consider this;

"...they lived and reigned....but the rest of the dead 'lived not again'...." Re.20:4-5

When John says the rest "lived not again", he is comparing their resurrection to those who "lived and reigned", or the first resurrection. He appears to be saying the ones who live and reign were dead (beheaded etc) and are alive again, but the rest of the dead won't live again until the thousand years are ended.

I believe the souls John saw live and reign with Christ in heaven. They are physically dead, but spiritually alive. All of the dead in Christ are with the Lord in heaven now, reigning with Him.

If you believe the saved are already resurrected, you must believe we are reigning now?

Yes, I do believe that because I believe scripture teaches it.

1 Peter 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Rev 1
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[Beckrl]

I don't believe Christ returns right when the thousand years ends, but rather when Satan's little season ends. That is when the dead in Christ will be physically resurrected. I don't know how long that little season is, but it has to be some little period of time that occurs after the thousand years ends and before Christ returns. I don't believe it is until the fire comes down from heaven that Christ returns (2 Thess 1:7-8, 2 Peter 3:10-12). What brings about the end of the thousand years is Satan being loosed. At that point the thousand years are over and the little season begins.

So how do you view Rev. 19:11-21 Would you say this is speaking of Christ return or not? Because If I understand you, you are claiming that Rev.20:9 is the return of Christ.

[John146]

So how do you view Rev. 19:11-21 Would you say this is speaking of Christ return or not?

Yes, I would.

Because If I understand you, you are claiming that Rev.20:9 is the return of Christ.

Right.

[Beckrl]

Yes, I would.

Right.

One in the same? Correct!

How then is the beast and false prophet cast into LOF, but it would seem after the thousand years that Satan is cast into LOF. Where is says that Satan is cast in the LOF where the beast and false prophet are

If that is the case you would be saying that the beast and false prophet will remain until the end, even through the thousand years reign of Christ.

[Rick Schworer]

When do we see Christ returning before the thousand years or after?

....

So how be you see those first and rest of the dead before and after the thousand years?

In Rev. 19-20 you see Christ show up before the 1,000 years start. After the 1,000 years are up, the Great White Throne happens, in which the unbelieving dead are raised and judged. After that, God creates a new earth and universe, and Heaven comes down to rest on earth.

[Beckrl]

In Rev. 19-20 you see Christ show up before the 1,000 years start. After the 1,000 years are up, the Great White Throne happens, in which the unbelieving dead are raised and judged. After that, God creates a new earth and universe, and Heaven comes down to rest on earth.

Welcome, Rick
I'm aware of that view, but was addressing John146 point of view where he seems to think both refer to the same end time.
Thanks

[pekoe]

Hi John146
I am led to the same question as Beckrl. If Re.19:11 & 20:9 are the same event, how is Satan and the unbelievers thrown into the lof a thousand years after the beast and false prophet? If the 1st resurrection is spiritual and the gwtj is where everyone is raised bodily, the beast and false prophet have to be here until Jesus returns and Satan isn't then bound for 1000.

John146, would you look at this again:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John is comparing the resurrection of those who live and reign with Jesus to those who are raised after the thousand years. I think he's saying the martyrs here are resurrected physically.

[Beckrl]

Hi John146

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John is comparing the resurrection of those who live and reign with Jesus to those who are raised after the thousand years. I think he's saying the maryters here are resurrected physically.

Hi pekoe,
I very much agree with your assumption here.

[John146]

Hi John146
I am led to the same question as Beckrl. If Re.19:11 & 20:9 are the same event, how is Satan and the unbelievers thrown into the lof a thousand years after the beast and false prophet? If the 1st resurrection is spiritual and the gwtj is where everyone is raised bodily, the beast and false prophet have to be here until Jesus returns and Satan isn't then bound for 1000.

What you're saying is apparently based on your assumption that Rev 19 & 20 are meant to be read chronologically. But I don't believe that is the case. I believe Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:9 are parallel. There are several parallels and recapitulations that can be found within the book of Revelation. Look how many times it describes God's final wrath coming down, for example.

John146, would you look at this again:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John is comparing the resurrection of those who live and reign with Jesus to those who are raised after the thousand years. I think he's saying the martyrs here are resurrected physically.

If you look at the Greek word translated "lived" (zao) in Rev 20:4 and compare it to the word translated "lived...again" (anazao) you should see that they have different meanings. In Rev 20:4 the word has to do with being alive and living, not with being resurrected. So, it's speaking of those who had some time previously already had part in the first resurrection and are now living and reigning with Christ. I believe the first resurrection itself is Christ's resurrection. The way people have part in His resurrection is by being born of the Spirit. So, the souls John sees as living and reigning with Christ already had part in the first resurrection even before he saw them. In Rev 20:5 the Greek word "anazao" is used instead, so it has to do with being dead but living again, so it's directly related to being resurrected.

In other words, Rev 20:4 is not meant to be read as if it says John saw the souls come to life and then they reigned with Christ. They were already spiritually alive when he saw them and then he saw that they lived and reigned with Christ. The rest of the physically dead, however, are not spiritually alive and do not reign with Christ. They will be physically resurrected after the thousand years, as will believers.

[John146]

One in the same? Correct!

How then is the beast and false prophet cast into LOF, but it would seem after the thousand years that Satan is cast into LOF. Where is says that Satan is cast in the LOF where the beast and false prophet are

If that is the case you would be saying that the beast and false prophet will remain until the end, even through the thousand years reign of Christ.

I don't believe it is saying that the beast and false prophet are already there before Satan is cast there. I believe it is saying that he is cast into the LOF where the beast and false prophet are also to be cast. I don't believe the text intends to give a sense of the timing of the casting of the beast and false prophet into the LOF in relation to Satan being cast into the LOF at all. But even if it was saying that the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF before Satan only a chronological reading of Rev. 19 & 20 would demand that they are cast in a thousand years before Satan. But I don't read Rev. 19 & 20 chronologically.

[Beckrl]

I don't believe it is saying that the beast and false prophet are already there before Satan is cast there. I believe it is saying that he is cast into the LOF where the beast and false prophet are also to be cast. I don't believe the text intends to give a sense of the timing of the casting of the beast and false prophet into the LOF in relation to Satan being cast into the LOF at all. But even if it was saying that the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF before Satan only a chronological reading of Rev. 19 & 20 would demand that they are cast in a thousand years before Satan. But I don't read Rev. 19 & 20 chronologically.

I would say that I see that Rev.19 is speaking of the destruction of the Great Harlot, Babylon the great city, which would be understood as Jerusalem where the beast that was upon the whore to which was drunken with the blood of the saints, and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. These were cast into the LoF.

This all related to Rev. 19 and 20:4 For these are they that have been martyred, these are the first resurrection. That is why the rest of the dead should be seen as the christians that die in the Lord from henceforth (from that point onward). Now atfer the thousand years the lord will return and the dead in Christ will rise first and we which remain will be changed.

Then at the end Satan is cast into the LoF where the beast and false prophet are.

First resurrected Martyred saints First Century-----Thousand years/ Church age-----Christ return and the rest of the dead raised.