The First and the Rest of the Dead

[Beckrl]

When he says, "...but the rest of the dead....", he's saying those of the 1st resurrection were "dead" also, but aren't anymore. The only way they could be considered "dead" is physically, because they are alive spiritually.

Hi pekoe,

That is what I think John is trying to relate. That those martyred is of the first to be resurrected and the rest that are dead will not be raised then but will be resurrected at the finish of the 1000 years, Why? It would be simple, for they are the ones that have died naturally. That is one reason I bring up the crops of the harvest for they show us this dividsion. Barley being the first to be resurrected from the ground as overcomers. Then the wheat will come later. But it's as if no one can see that relationship.

I think the 144,000 are raised before other believers.

I think that scripture shows us that. Rev.7:1-17 shows us both the 144,000 and an great multiude those that come out of the great tribulation, both of these are martyred and shown in Rev.6:9-11 that await for those that come out of the great tribulation. Those both are given white robes.

Yes, Jesus does say "all", but if some are raised first, the "rest of the dead" would be all that are in the graves, wouldn't they?

Yes!!!

[Firstfruits]

Hi Firstfruits,

I wasn't sure where you stood on this subject, alot of what you believe agrees with my view, just different in timing.

Thanks Beckrl,

From the following scripture is it saying that when Jesus returns both the beast and the false prophet are here alive then cast into the lake of fire, would that mean that it is a future event?

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[pekoe]

posted by Beckrl
That is what I think John is trying to relate. That those martyred is of the first to be resurrected and the rest that are dead will not be raised then but will be resurrected at the finish of the 1000 years, Why? It would be simple, for they are the ones that have died naturally. That is one reason I bring up the crops of the harvest for they show us this dividsion. Barley being the first to be resurrected from the ground as overcomers. Then the wheat will come later. But it's as if no one can see that relationship.

I never thought about the difference between barley and wheat. I know the OT speaks of two harvests.

"Also you shall observe the Feast of the Harvest of the first fruits of your labors from what you sow in the field; also the Feast of the Ingathering at the end of the year when you gather in the fruit of your labors from the field." Ex.23:16

I think the 1st harvest will include believers who were not martyred like Abraham, Daniel etc. It think it's possible that the time of a believers resurrection is based on how faithfully he/she walked with Jesus in this life.

I think that scripture shows us that. Rev.7:1-17 shows us both the 144,000 and an great multiude those that come out of the great tribulation, both of these are martyred and shown in Rev.6:9-11 that await for those that come out of the great tribulation. Those both are given white robes.

Although both groups are redeemed, there is a distinction between them. Some believe the 144,000 are Jewish preachers who spread the gospel during the trib, but I don't see much justification for this teaching. The next time we see the 144,000, they are in Heaven (Re.14:1-5).

[John146]

I think the 144,000 are raised before other believers.

Can you show me how that fits with the order of bodily resurrection that Paul describes here:

1 Cor 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[David Taylor]

Can you show me how that fits with the order of bodily resurrection that Paul describes here:

1 Cor 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Expand the context two verses prior....if you don't some teachers will erroneously mis-chop and dice verse 23 in a manner Paul did not intend it to be divided.

15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

Too often you'll see modern endtimes book 'experts/scholars' attempt to dice verse 23 into three groups, when the context as given earlier in verse 20 makes it clear; there is only 1) Christ the firstfruits, and 2) those that are His at His coming

[pekoe]

posted by John146
Can you show me how that fits with the order of bodily resurrection that Paul describes here:

1 Cor 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

First, let me say you and David Taylor and others may well be correct. I'm just looking for answers like everyone else. One reason I think the way I do is the very passage (the rest of the dead) we've been discussing. There is little doubt in my mind that those described as being resurrected "first" are being raised physically, not spiritually, with an interval (of a thousand years?) until "the rest of the dead" are raised physically.

1 Co.15 says Jesus is the firstfruits and at His coming "those that are His" are raised. Beside the problem of the 1st resurrection and the rest of the dead, Jesus isn't the only person described as a "firstfruit".

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Re.14:4

These are the 144,000. Are all believers "firstfruits" or only a select group of believers? A firstfruit is a crop that is picked first, isn't it? What does this mean? Is there any connection of this term with resurrection? Maybe, maybe not.

1 Co.15 also says "...then comes the end...", when Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father. There might be some space in between "those that are His" and "then comes the end" for the resurrection of "the rest of the dead." I don't know.

I was taught for many years that all believers are the "church" or "Bride of Christ", but look at how the Book of Revelation even describes reward based on works (Re.2-3). Not all believers are given the same things, have the same status or proximity to the throne, do they? Since those of the 1st resurrection are raised physically and the rest of the dead includes both believers and unbelievers, what determines who gets raised when? I think it could be as easy as a persons "ripeness".

[David Taylor]

I believe a more tendable understanding is that the message of Salvation was first taken to the Jews, and the 144K represent the first mass of the redeemed....to the Jew first, then to the Gentile. The uncountable multitude represents the later outgoing of the gospel to the Gentiles. So what you have with Rev chapter 7 is not and endtime-future event that has yet to occur; but rather, a picture or vision that is seen at the endtime that encompasses all of the redeemed of all time.

When Christ comes, all the redeemed will be one. As He said in John 10, there shall be one fold. The lost sheep of Israel were the first to come in and benefit, and afterward the Gentiles began to come in, and the division wall of partition between Jew and Gentile was removed and dissolved to the point where there was no difference.

Later in Revelation 14 we see the 144K represented again in Heaven.....because they are the firstfruits....(nor of the resurrection like I Cor 15 is talking about) but the firstfruits of salvation. They were the first mass-group to be saved.

Similarly James, the brother of our Lord, in his epistle, addresses it to the twelve tribes of his day, who he said were the firstfruits to participate in the gift of salvation of all creatures.

Too often folks attempt to cram every bit of Revelation into 'our' future; not realizing that some of it depicts visions from the the past and present of John's day; as well as the future (of both his day and our day).

Going back to I Cor 15 and the firstfruits of resurrection however, it is very clear there, Jesus alone is the firstfruits of the glorified bodily incorruptible resurrection. Afterward, those who are His will also participate at His Coming, then commenth the End.

Synchs perfectly with John 5:28 and John 6:39-40 and John 6:44, and JOhn 6:54 and John 11:24 and John 12:48 and Acts 24:15 and Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 26:19 and Job 14:12 which speak of the resurrection of mankind being a one-time, end-time single event.

[John146]

Expand the context two verses prior....if you don't some teachers will erroneously mis-chop and dice verse 23 in a manner Paul did not intend it to be divided.

15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

Too often you'll see modern endtimes book 'experts/scholars' attempt to dice verse 23 into three groups, when the context as given earlier in verse 20 makes it clear; there is only 1) Christ the firstfruits, and 2) those that are His at His coming

Yep, I know what you mean and I normally do include verse 20 when bringing up the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality, but just didn't do that this time. Verse 20 makes it clear that Christ Himself is the firstfruits, the first to be raised unto bodily immortality and at His coming those who are His will also be raised unto bodily immortality. That's it. Paul mentions no one else ever being raised unto bodily immortality.

[John146]

First, let me say you and David Taylor and others may well be correct. I'm just looking for answers like everyone else. One reason I think the way I do is the very passage (the rest of the dead) we've been discussing. There is little doubt in my mind that those described as being resurrected "first" are being raised physically, not spiritually, with an interval (of a thousand years?) until "the rest of the dead" are raised physically.

1 Co.15 says Jesus is the firstfruits and at His coming "those that are His" are raised. Beside the problem of the 1st resurrection and the rest of the dead, Jesus isn't the only person described as a "firstfruit".

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Re.14:4

These are the 144,000. Are all believers "firstfruits" or only a select group of believers? A firstfruit is a crop that is picked first, isn't it? What does this mean? Is there any connection of this term with resurrection? Maybe, maybe not.

1 Co.15 also says "...then comes the end...", when Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father. There might be some space in between "those that are His" and "then comes the end" for the resurrection of "the rest of the dead." I don't know.

I was taught for many years that all believers are the "church" or "Bride of Christ", but look at how the Book of Revelation even describes reward based on works (Re.2-3). Not all believers are given the same things, have the same status or proximity to the throne, do they? Since those of the 1st resurrection are raised physically and the rest of the dead includes both believers and unbelievers, what determines who gets raised when? I think it could be as easy as a persons "ripeness".

In the context of 1 Cor 15:20-23 it is only Christ Himself who is described as the firstfruits.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

What it means for Him to be called "the firstfruits of them that slept" is simply the fact that He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality and the next in order to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality are those who are His at His coming.

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[Beckrl]

First, let me say you and David Taylor and others may well be correct. I'm just looking for answers like everyone else. One reason I think the way I do is the very passage (the rest of the dead) we've been discussing. There is little doubt in my mind that those described as being resurrected "first" are being raised physically, not spiritually, with an interval (of a thousand years?) until "the rest of the dead" are raised physically.


I was taught for many years that all believers are the "church" or "Bride of Christ", but look at how the Book of Revelation even describes reward based on works (Re.2-3). Not all believers are given the same things, have the same status or proximity to the throne, do they? Since those of the 1st resurrection are raised physically and the rest of the dead includes both believers and unbelievers, what determines who gets raised when? I think it could be as easy as a persons "ripeness".

Thank you, you would be right in my understanding.

[Beckrl]

Thanks Beckrl,

From the following scripture is it saying that when Jesus returns both the beast and the false prophet are here alive then cast into the lake of fire, would that mean that it is a future event?

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

It means that they were casted in the LoF in the first century the false prophet (apostate Israel) and beast (Nero/Roman Empire). Then we have an millennum of the church unto the gentiles preaching the gospel until the return of Christ.

[Beckrl]

I never thought about the difference between barley and wheat. I know the OT speaks of two harvests.

Here is some threads about it that i started: Wheat-harvest-literal-or-spiritual and The-Harvest-Seasons-shows-the-Resurrections

Although both groups are redeemed, there is a distinction between them. Some believe the 144,000 are Jewish preachers who spread the gospel during the trib, but I don't see much justification for this teaching. The next time we see the 144,000, they are in Heaven (Re.14:1-5).

I for one see the 144,000 as OT saints that have been killed (Matthew 23:34-36, Revelation 18:24) Notice both (144,000 and the multiude) are given white robes for they are the martyred.

[pekoe]

posted by David Taylor

I believe a more tendable understanding is that the message of Salvation was first taken to the Jews, and the 144K represent the first mass of the redeemed....to the Jew first, then to the Gentile. The uncountable multitude represents the later outgoing of the gospel to the Gentiles. So what you have with Rev chapter 7 is not and endtime-future event that has yet to occur; but rather, a picture or vision that is seen at the endtime that encompasses all of the redeemed of all time.

I think the 144,000 is a very select group within our faith and is based on works regardless of time frame.

Of this group it is said they were not defiled with women, had no guile found in their mouths and are without fault. These attributes (in my opinion) are not from the positional standpoint of being sinless based on salvation alone as it would then apply to every believer. These attributes are how these people lived. What we see here is that only the 144,000 may learn and sing a new song. No other believers have this right.

"For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off." Is.56:4-5

This shows that even though we are "one in Christ", we are not the same in every way.
The 144,000 may not even represent all Israel, as they are sealed out of those tribes and there is even evidence from both testaments to suggest that they aren't even all Jewish.

When Christ comes, all the redeemed will be one. As He said in John 10, there shall be one fold. The lost sheep of Israel were the first to come in and benefit, and afterward the Gentiles began to come in, and the division wall of partition between Jew and Gentile was removed and dissolved to the point where there was no difference.

One fold may simply mean that all belong to Him. It doesn't mean every one is the same postionally before God. And it should be remembered that the first people to hear the gospel message were Adam and Eve, who were not Jews. Even Abraham was a gentile when he came to the faith. But on there being "no difference" between Jew and gentile, this teaching fits perfectly with the idea that status in the hereafter is based on a believers works for God, not lineage.

Later in Revelation 14 we see the 144K represented again in Heaven.....because they are the firstfruits....(nor of the resurrection like I Cor 15 is talking about) but the firstfruits of salvation. They were the first mass-group to be saved.

Then the rank of these believers is based on lineage and timing rather than behavior.

Similarly James, the brother of our Lord, in his epistle, addresses it to the twelve tribes of his day, who he said were the firstfruits to participate in the gift of salvation of all creatures.

You could be right.

Too often folks attempt to cram every bit of Revelation into 'our' future; not realizing that some of it depicts visions from the the past and present of John's day; as well as the future (of both his day and our day).

I don't think anybody is cramming all of Revelation into the last days.

Going back to I Cor 15 and the firstfruits of resurrection however, it is very clear there, Jesus alone is the firstfruits of the glorified bodily incorruptible resurrection. Afterward, those who are His will also participate at His Coming, then commenth the End.

As I said, you might well be right, or it might be something that we're not aware of.

Synchs perfectly with John 5:28 and John 6:39-40 and John 6:44, and JOhn 6:54 and John 11:24 and John 12:48 and Acts 24:15 and Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 26:19 and Job 14:12 which speak of the resurrection of mankind being a one-time, end-time single event.

I'll get back to you bro.

[pekoe]

posted by David Taylor
Synchs perfectly with John 5:28 and John 6:39-40 and John 6:44, and JOhn 6:54 and John 11:24 and John 12:48 and Acts 24:15 and Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 26:19 and Job 14:12 which speak of the resurrection of mankind being a one-time, end-time single event.

After examining your proof verses, it appears that the phrase "at the last day" is no differet in the Greek as "in the last days."

This 5124 know 1097 also 1161, that 3754 in 1722 the last 2078 days 2250 perilous 5467 times 2540 shall come 1764 . 2 Tim.3:1

And 1161 this 5124 is 2076 the Father's 3962 will 2307 which 3588 hath sent 3992 me 3165, that 2443 of all 3956 which 3739 he hath given 1325 me 3427 I should lose 622 nothing 3361 1537 846, but 235 should raise 450 0 it 846 up again 450 at 1722 the last 2078 day 2250. Jn.6:39

Therefore, there is no proof here that Jesus is going to resurrect everyone on a final or last day. He may well have been saing He would resurrect people in the last days.

[pekoe]

posted by John146
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What does Paul mean when he says "every man in his own order...."???

It could have to do with position or time, but no matter what it refers to one thing is sure. Paul is saying each in his own. Therefore, he is first speaking of individuals, not a group. It is here that I believe an individuals conduct will affect the time of his resurrection.