The First and the Rest of the Dead

[Beckrl]

I wanted to started this thread to share and discuss the difference between thoses two groups. Knowing that alot of other threads have discussed these, but my question I wanted to put forth is IF those of the first resurrection is Saints and those reign with Christ for a thousand years why are the Rest of the dead thought to be unbelivers?

When do we see Christ returning before the thousand years or after?

If after the thousand years wouldn't those that have died in Christ be raised at Christ return, include those that are among the rest of the dead?

Making those of the first special in the sence of order, each man in his own order, implying that those persecuted and martyred for the witness of Christ are among the first to be resurrected.

This would be of course those that have been martyred been resurrection first before the thousand years and reigning with Christ in heaven and we which remain reign with Christ here on earth as priest and then after the thousand years we which have dead in Christ would be raised to life after the thousand years at Christ return.

So how be you see those first and rest of the dead before and after the thousand years?

[ross3421]

I wanted to started this thread to share and discuss the difference between those two groups. Knowing that alot of other threads have discussed these, but my question I wanted to put forth is IF those of the first resurrection is Saints and those reign with Christ for a thousand years why are the Rest of the dead thought to be unbelievers?

When do we see Christ returning before the thousand years or after?

If after the thousand years wouldn't those that have died in Christ be raised at Christ return, include those that are among the rest of the dead?

Making those of the first special in the sense of order, each man in his own order, implying that those persecuted and martyred for the witness of Christ are among the first to be resurrected.

This would be of course those that have been martyred been resurrection first before the thousand years and reigning with Christ in heaven and we which remain reign with Christ here on earth as priest and then after the thousand years we which have dead in Christ would be raised to life after the thousand years at Christ return.

So how be you see those first and rest of the dead before and after the thousand years?

Yes, we are in agreement.

The "rest of the dead" are the rest of the dead believers apart from the martyred which shall be resurrected. If the are not believers then where is the resurrection of those which did not die a martyred death? Also who would be those who are "priests of God and reign. Clearly there are two groups of believers spoken in this passage.

Thanks. Beck.

[pekoe]

I think the rest of the dead will be a resurrection of saved and unsaved people.

[Beckrl]

So those that would claim that the first resurrection is an spiritual resurrection would be leaving out those that died in Christ within the thousand years and coming to life at the end of the thousand years, which would be at his return. Although both the righteous and unrighteous would be raised at his return. John makes the difference in the order of resurrections those of the martyred being the first. Otherwise whom are the rest of dead that shall come to life at the return of Christ, the end of the thousand years? Would John intentally leave out the saints that would rise to life at the end of the thousand years? I think not.

[divaD]

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The first thing one needs to ask themselves, not rest of the dead who, but rest of the dead when? We have to first connect the rest of the dead to some point in time, before we can determine who the rest of the dead is. When were the rest of the dead dead? Wouldn't it be at the beginning of the 1000 yrs that the rest of the dead is dead? That would also mean that all of those of the first resurrection are raised at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. The only view that makes sense of it all is the premil view, not because I'm premil or anything. The first resurrection is the resurrection of all saints, the ones depicted in 1 Thess 4. The rest of the dead is the resurrection of the unjust, because the next order of events, following satan's little season, is the great white throne judgment...and we all know what happens there. Won't be any saints at that judgment, because they will already be in immortal bodies. It specifically states that it is the dead at that judgment, not the living.

[Beckrl]

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The first thing one needs to ask themselves, not rest of the dead who, but rest of the dead when? We have to first connect the rest of the dead to some point in time, before we can determine who the rest of the dead is. When were the rest of the dead dead? Wouldn't it be at the beginning of the 1000 yrs that the rest of the dead is dead? That would also mean that all of those of the first resurrection are raised at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. The only view that makes sense of it all is the premil view, not because I'm premil or anything. The first resurrection is the resurrection of all saints, the ones depicted in 1 Thess 4. The rest of the dead is the resurrection of the unjust, because the next order of events, following satan's little season, is the great white throne judgment...and we all know what happens there. Won't be any saints at that judgment, because they will already be in immortal bodies. It specifically states that it is the dead at that judgment, not the living.

You still have not address the full question of whom is the rest? Even yourself know when they will be resurrection to life again, that is after the finish of the thousand years. Are you saying that the first resurrection will happen at the begining of the thousand years before Chirst return?

To me the rest of the dead is seen as those of Rev. 14:13 as those that die in the Lord henceforth. Blessed is the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth.

[divaD]

You still have not address the full question of whom is the rest? Even yourself know when they will be resurrection to life again, that is after the finish of the thousand years. Are you saying that the first resurrection will happen at the begining of the thousand years before Chirst return?

To me the rest of the dead is seen as those of Rev. 14:13 as those that die in the Lord henceforth. Blessed is the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth.

Beckrl, Christ returns, then the 1000 yrs begins. The 1000 yrs has not already started. This means that the first resurrection of Rev 20 is the physical resurrection of the just, the resurrection at the end if the 1000 yrs is the resurrection of the unjust. I'll again explain my logic below. Feel free to point out what is not logical about it and why, then we'll try to go from there.


If the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 yrs are finished, it only stands to reason that the rest of the dead are already dead at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. How can the rest of the dead not live again until the 1000 yrs are finished, unless the rest of the dead are already dead at the beginning of it? This of course presents a major problem if we place the beginning of the 1000 yrs in the past, such as in the 1st century.

What then does that tell us about those of the first resurrection? They live and reign with Christ 1000 yrs. When? At the beginning of the 1000 yrs. Not in the middle of it, not at the end of it, but from the beginning of it..all of them, and not just some of them. If the rest of the dead are all dead at the beginning of the 1000 yrs, then what does that say about those not included in the rest of the dead? They all physically came to life at the beginning of the 1000 yrs..all of them..every last one of them except for the rest of the dead of course. These remain dead until the 1000 yrs are finished, which implies that they must already be dead when the 1000 yrs begins.

[Beckrl]

Beckrl, Christ returns, then the 1000 yrs begins. The 1000 yrs has not already started. This means that the first resurrection of Rev 20 is the physical resurrection of the just, the resurrection at the end if the 1000 yrs is the resurrection of the unjust. I'll again explain my logic below. Feel free to point out what is not logical about it and why, then we'll try to go from there.


If the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 yrs are finished, it only stands to reason that the rest of the dead are already dead at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. How can the rest of the dead not live again until the 1000 yrs are finished, unless the rest of the dead are already dead at the beginning of it? This of course presents a major problem if we place the beginning of the 1000 yrs in the past, such as in the 1st century.

I feel that John is saying that the dead which die in Christ, knowing that all shall at one point die. When he adds that the rest of the dead, I believe it is applied the same way as in Rev. 14:13. Blessed is the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth. Here John speaks of the dead that hasn't died as of yet, but from that time forth, those that die in Christ are blessed. John knowing that the dead will one day be raised to life again, speaks of them as already being dead as he does in Rev.14:13. Therefore John is making a destinction between those maryred of the first century and those who will die after those which will be raised on the last day as the rest of the dead. Refering back again to Rev.14:13.

Therefore if one views that the thousand years as only figurative of some amount of time and those martyred reigns in heaven and then after the thousand years at the appointed time those rest of the dead in Chirst will be raised to live again at his return. One then must see the thousand years as the time between Christ ascension and his return where he has went to sit on the Father's right hand to reign.

What then does that tell us about those of the first resurrection? They live and reign with Christ 1000 yrs. When? At the beginning of the 1000 yrs. Not in the middle of it, not at the end of it, but from the beginning of it..all of them, and not just some of them. If the rest of the dead are all dead at the beginning of the 1000 yrs, then what does that say about those not included in the rest of the dead? They all physically came to life at the beginning of the 1000 yrs..all of them..every last one of them except for the rest of the dead of course. These remain dead until the 1000 yrs are finished, which implies that they must already be dead when the 1000 yrs begins.

I understand the Premill view, I was hoping not to go down that debate road. One must understand Rev.14:13 to continue.

[divaD]

One must understand Rev.14:13 to continue.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

What would be the obvious thing that happens to them when they die?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They would join these under the altar, correct? These of Revelation 6:11 would be the ones of Revelation 14:13, correct?

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So far, we should be able to see that those of Revelation 14:13 join those of Revelation 6:9 under the altar, and that both are then of the 1st resurrection, because it states blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection, which Revelation 14:13 also states, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth. So then, who are the rest of the dead? It can't be anyone in Revelation 6:9 nor
Revelation 14:13. The only logical conclusion is that they are the unjust.

[Beckrl]

So far, we should be able to see that those of Revelation 14:13 join those of Revelation 6:9 under the altar, and that both are then of the 1st resurrection, because it states blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,

Correct those under the alter await for those to be killed as themselves were. Those of the OT saints awaiting for the martyred saints of the NT church of the first century. Those would be of those that were killed by the priest of the apostate Israel that forced many to worship the image of Caesar and or by the Roman's themselves.[ beast of the sea and the beast of the earth].

We find that after babylon the great city [Jerusalem] has fallen and all those that worhipped the beast were slain, John then says, Blessed are the dead in the Lord from henceforth.

What is John saying? All those that were martyred for the Lord in that time of trouble have their reward, they are to sit on thrones to reign with Christ for a thousand years. [Blessed are these of the first resurrection], But to those that die in the Lord from that point onward [henceforth] are blessed because their work will follow them where as those that have died an martyrs death had their lifes shorthen. Both are blessed but in different ways.

which Revelation 14:13 also states, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth. So then, who are the rest of the dead? It can't be anyone in Revelation 6:9 nor
Revelation 14:13. The only logical conclusion is that they are the unjust.

The rest of the dead would be those that die henceforth in the Lord. From the time of the destruction until Christ returns [ie. thousand years]

[pekoe]

Believers will not all be rewarded the same.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Co.5:10

I think it's possible that the status of Bride of Christ is a reward for faithfulness and will be resurrected first and doesn't include all believers. This thought occured to me while pondering another potential problem.
I had always been taught that the "Great White Throne Judgement" was a judgement of unbelievers only, but when you look at the passage where it is described, it infers that saved people will take part in it.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Re.20:15

Isn't everyone going to be "not found" written in the book at this time? Apparently not.

This resurrection seems to be one of believers and unbelievers. The rest of the dead may include believers who occupy lesser roles on the new earth.

[divaD]

Believers will not all be rewarded the same.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Co.5:10

I think it's possible that the status of Bride of Christ is a reward for faithfulness and will be resurrected first and doesn't include all believers. This thought occured to me while pondering another potential problem.
I had always been taught that the "Great White Throne Judgement" was a judgement of unbelievers only, but when you look at the passage where it is described, it infers that saved people will take part in it.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Re.20:15

Isn't everyone going to be "not found" written in the book at this time? Apparently not.

This resurrection seems to be one of believers and unbelievers. The rest of the dead may include believers who occupy lesser roles on the new earth.

Depending on how one views the 1st resurrection, such as it being physical, one then has to wonder, if there are believers mixed in with unbelievers of the rest of the dead, then how is that the believers didn't take part in the 1st resurrection instead? Are you suggesting that some believers fall short of the 1st resurrection, for whatever reason, but that they then get saved in the final resurrection instead?

[pekoe]

posted by divaD
Depending on how one views the 1st resurrection, such as it being physical, one then has to wonder, if there are believers mixed in with unbelievers of the rest of the dead, then how is that the believers didn't take part in the 1st resurrection instead? Are you suggesting that some believers fall short of the 1st resurrection, for whatever reason, but that they then get saved in the final resurrection instead?

Yes. I think it's possible that a believers status or rank in eternity is based on how closely they walked with Jesus in this life.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Re.3:21

Overcomes what? Aren't all believers going to sit with Jesus on His throne and rule and reign with Him? Or is the Bride a very select group of believers hand picked by the Lord?

Read Re.14:1-5. There are 144,000 who follow Jesus wherever He goes and sing a special song that only they know. Why? Aren't all believers going to know the song?They are called "firstfruits." Why? Are there 2nd fruits?

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Re.20:5

The "rest of the dead" are going to live "again" in the same way the people who are resurrected first are alive again....physically.

[Beckrl]

Yes. I think it's possible that a believers status or rank in eternity is based on how closely they walked with Jesus in this life.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Re.3:21

Overcomes what? Aren't all believers going to sit with Jesus on His throne and rule and reign with Him? Or is the Bride a very select group of believers hand picked by the Lord?

Read Re.14:1-5. There are 144,000 who follow Jesus wherever He goes and sing a special song that only they know. Why? Aren't all believers going to know the song?They are called "firstfruits." Why? Are there 2nd fruits?

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Re.20:5

The "rest of the dead" are going to live "again" in the same way the people who are resurrected first are alive again....physically.

This maybe getting off topic but you bring up a very good point. The bride and her guests, read Matthew 22:1-14 which is keep in context with Matthew 21:42-46. How else do we see the nations [gentiles] come unto the bride [new jerusalem] in Rev.21:22-27?

With all that then one does see that there is an select group of honor. That everyone can't be apart of, as I said before there are certain promises given to Israel that we as gentile believers will not partake in. For example we gentiles believers aren't promised to sit on thrones judging the twevle tribes of Israel neither are we able to sing that song of the 144,000.

[John146]

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


The first thing one needs to ask themselves, not rest of the dead who, but rest of the dead when? We have to first connect the rest of the dead to some point in time, before we can determine who the rest of the dead is. When were the rest of the dead dead? Wouldn't it be at the beginning of the 1000 yrs that the rest of the dead is dead? That would also mean that all of those of the first resurrection are raised at the beginning of the 1000 yrs. The only view that makes sense of it all is the premil view, not because I'm premil or anything.

LOL! Right.

Have you given more thought to whether or not you believe any believers will be physically resurrected after the thousand years? In other words, have you decided what you believe as far as whether anyone will be saved during the thousand years?

I ask this because most premils believe people will be saved during the thousand years. And most would believe that at least some of those who are saved during that time also would die during that time. But if that was the case then that would mean Paul neglected to mention them when he spoke of the order of resurrections unto immortality in 1 Cor 15:22-23. So, it seems that the only way premil could make sense of that is to adopt a strange belief that no one would be saved during the supposed future thousand years. Because of all this, I hardly think that premil could possibly be the only view that makes sense of it all. I don't think adopting a very unconventional belief that no one will be saved during a future thousand year period on earth is a good way to make sense of it all.