Dead to self or dying to self?

[Firefighter]

Brother, I understand the confusion satan has thrown in on the scripture you quote.

...because of course if you do not agree with his opinion, you have obviously been confused by the devil.

[BruceG]

...because of course if you do not agree with his opinion, you have obviously been confused by the devil.

Brother, I am not trying to be contentious nor discourteous. I care. That is the total extent of why I stay on here posting, hoping that the hunger in a heart will drive them to see their savior high and lifted up. He indeed is able to save to the uttermost.

I pray that what I have said has in no way offended you. If it has, I apologize. But how can I deny what God has clearly spoken to us? I simply cannot.

Blessing to you my friend

Bruce

[Firefighter]

You haven't offended me in the least. I would like to know whether or not you still sin though...

[ClayInHisHands]

I still sin...but I refuse to accept that it's just my sinful nature.

We can choose to recognize that God has freed us from the bondage of sin through the law and that we are a new man and we are to put away the old man....not hold on to it a little...and what I mean by holding on is...I think we are holding on when we say "it's just my nature...I will sin" I don't have to sin...I can choose not to through Christ who WILL STRENGTHEN ME and provide an escape from temptation.

Here's the most famous quote I hear most Christians say in regards to this type of discussion...."That's great that you have had victory over sin in your life, so you do it your way and I'll do it my way"...I'm sorry, but there is only ONE WAY.


In Christ's Love

[Firefighter]

I still sin...but I refuse to accept that it's just my sinful nature.

So is it your willful disregard for God's standard then???

[HisLeast]

If I answered you, you would err in looking at he wrong person. May I ask you, do you believe God in you can keep you from falling? Do you believe you can do all things thru Christ who strengthens you? Do you believe God will with every temptation make a way of escape for you so that you might be able to bear it? Do you believe God will cause you to walk in His statutes. Do you believe that your shield of faith will quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one?

The person he's "looking at" is irrelevant. What IS relevant is a seeming disparity between what we observe in all people (sin) and what appears to be proposed in this thread (a state of sinlessness). So it only seems appropriate that one would ask if sin is present in your life. If one observed the sum of your actions since making these discoveries would they observe sin at any point in time?

You'll notice the question is posed this time by looking at the sum of actions, so Yes or No will do.

[ClayInHisHands]

So is it your willful disregard for God's standard then???

No, what I mean is that I refuse to just except that I'm going to sin cause that's just who I am. Of course I know we do and say things we shouldn't...it's like...I don't go "oh well, so I cuss occassionally when I get upset...I'll get there one day."...God's desire is to change me and conform to the likeness of Christ. If I am still stuggling in the same sin for 30 years and there isn't evidence of a change...then I can't be possibly allowing to submit total control to God. When God works he will change me supernaturally and evidence will show the power of Christ in me. I have not arrived and I have not said that.

The only thing I have a problem with is I think alot of Christians excuse sin as "just what we do and we try to do better the next time" Of course we get back up....but most Christians stay down and accept defeat and try harder next time.....We are not to try in our own strength to do better. I think you know what I'm saying but, and I mean no disrespect, but are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing? Because I have a feeling you know exactly what I mean.

COMPROMISE and Self Justification are the greatest barriers we as Christians put to our defense. We are stumbling blocks for new and old Christians and even to unbelievers who see us as always saying...We just have to pray and try harder. Yes, we pray that God changes us and he will if we truly LET HIM.....but it goes much deeper than just saying it the simple way we say it...because I believe that creates a very vague and dangerous foundation. Kind of like if someone is at a conference and they go to the altar and accept christ.....that doesn't mean PROOF POSITIVE that person is saved. Because alot of people believ that when they were a teenager lets's say 16 accepted Christ and was baptized. They are 46 years old now. They tell everyone...I was saved and baptized when I was 16...I am a Christian...yet they cuss like a sailor(even if they don't cuss)....go to church once in a while(or maybe all the time)....and live life just like everyone else in the world. Wouldn't that be living in the flesh? Wouldn't that be being controlled by the flesh? I know this scenario is a little different then what we're talking about but they both coincide I think.


In Christ's Love

[Vhayes]

We grow.

We are born and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we grow. Just like children, we make mistakes along the way.

I sin. I have a savior Who forgives me because the price was paid for whatever sin I commit over 2,000 years ago. Does that mean I have a license to sin? Not if I understand the cost to Him. Not if I keep my focus on Him and not on me.

It's ALL about Jesus.

[Firefighter]

If I am still stuggling in the same sin for 30 years and there isn't evidence of a change...then I can't be possibly allowing to submit total control to God.

True, but if you sin even once you still can't possibly be submitting total control to God, unless of course, God's control includes sinning, which we know it don't.

I understand what you are trying to say, I think. We never have ANY excuse to sin, I get that, BUT, the way in which you try to get your point across comes off as arrogant, conceited, and hypocritical. None of us have to sin, but inevitably, we do... and we will continue to as long as we live in this fleshly body. To deny that is to deny historical evidence and reality.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Firefighter]

So is it your willful disregard for God's standard then???

No, what I mean is that I refuse to just except that I'm going to sin cause that's just who I am.

If it is not because of "willful disregard for God's standards", and it is not "just who you are" then why do you sin???

[ClayInHisHands]

the way in which you try to get your point across comes off as arrogant, conceited, and hypocritical.

Therein lies the evidence that written messages are flawed because you can't express properly the tone in your voice. I better just refrain from arguing my point because I don't want to cause someone to stumble because I can't seem to express my thoughts correctly. I am a piece of dirt, or even better a pepermint candy wrapper on the side of the road. I don't deserve God's love and I am not worthy to even approach him in prayer. But thanks be to Jesus Christ that God sees His Son's blood covering me and He knows me and I long to know Him more because He is Worthy.

[Firefighter]

I am a piece of dirt

No risk of stumbling or being offended, so have at it. We are all dirt...

[Dani H]

We are greatly beloved dirt though.

I'd rather be greatly beloved dirt than a cast-off diamond.

My earthen vessel holds a treasure beyond description. I do not intend to sin against my Lord, but I do, and He daily shows me a better way, and I walk in the light as I am able. How can I not?

1 Timothy 1
15-19Here's a word you can take to heart and depend on: Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. I'm proof—Public Sinner Number One—of someone who could never have made it apart from sheer mercy. And now he shows me off—evidence of his endless patience—to those who are right on the edge of trusting him forever.

[ClayInHisHands]

If it is not because of "willful disregard for God's standards", and it is not "just who you are" then why do you sin???

Okay, I do sin because I am a sinner. But it's my old nature....It's not suppose to be that way ANYMORE...when I willfully sin I am basically telling God I want to do what I want and not what You want. My point was to say it is all determined with what is in your heart......and even though the heart is black...God knows your intent but what we have to decipher in our minds is this....is our intent just good intentions(that we feel like we need to do...so we're in good standing, or are we relying on the Strength of Jesus and just alowing him to move us to do it. I can't seem to express precisely what I mean.


It's like you know that you know. Can we prove that Jesus was who He was. Some will say yes, because we have witnesses who seem Him do the things He did, witnesses who saw Him die and saw alive from the dead and saw Him ascend into the clouds.


Do we believ merely because Paul and John and Peter, etc said so? Somewhat, but
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.


In Christ's Love

[theBelovedDisciple]

Brother, I understand the confusion satan has thrown in on the scripture you quote.

"If any man says he has no sin, he decieves himself and the truth is not in him."

Seems clear, right? But wait, let's back up and see what John is driving at. He has just told saints that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse use, two very distinct acts. Then he simply says this.

Now if any man says he has no sin that he needs to be forgiven of and cleansed of, he deceives himself.

Now how do we know this is the meaning inteneded? With other books of the Bible, it might have been a harder task. Not so with First John!

He immediately tells them the goal of his writing them.

"Little children, these things I write unto you that you sin not."

What a catch 22 that is if the commonly held understanding is true! If you obey what he tells you to do, you are deceived! LOL. That can't be right.

But John does not stop there. Let's keep reading.

" Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him"
1 John 3:34-6

There is more....

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."
1 John 5:4

or perhaps....

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
1 John 5:18

Brother, is it not evident to you that the meaning of the first scripture referenced cannot in any way shape of form be referencing what the goal of our Christian walk is to be? God wills that we become holy, fully sancitifed and meet for the master's use. This entire doctrine of unbelief that we MUST sin is simply unscriptural. Christ came to set us free!

If He burst into the prison house where we have been chained all our lives, did away with the sentence hanging over us but then left us still in our chains, slaves to sin, whay type of salvation is that? I can list 20 scriptures that clearly state the intention of God, to free us not only from the penalty of our sins but the power that causes them, our flesh.

Do not confuse the fleshly body with the fleshly nature, also referred to as our old man. They are two very distinct things. They indeed MUST be, for Paul tells us "but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwells in you." Certainly he is not there referencing the body itself for of course we are still in the body. It is the last of the things to be changed at the coming of the Lord. But the spirit and the soul must be cleansed now. How, by putting off the old nature by faith, and putting on the new man, by the same faith.

In ourselves, of course it is impossible! But it is not us saving us, it is the God of the universe. Paul prayed for the Ephesians that:

"the eyes of their understanding would be enlightened (and that is indeed what needs to happen) that we might know the hope of His calling, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward usward who believe, even the same power with which He raised Christ from the dead!"
Ephesians 1:17-20

Can we even begin to comprehend what the possibilities are here if this is true? Is anything too hard for God to accomplish in us? Is we are His workmanship, and that He would now be the potter and we the clay, and He has promised to "cause us to obey" (Ezek.36:26), and He has promised that sin shall no longer have domionion over us, and that we will never any longer be tempted more than we can bear, and that He will keep us from falling and our shield of faith will quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one, and that old things are now passed away and all things have become new, and that we are dead and our life is now hid with Christ, my question is simply "Why do we refuse to believe Him?". It is time we wake up to the "exceeding great and precious promises, that by these we might be partakers of the divine nature."

We have been infected, dear brotheers and sisters, infected with doubt and unbelief. Look back at the story of God's people exiting the land of the flesh (Egypt) and heading towards the Promised land of rest. Look at the lessons taught there in that 40 year old story. They were stories for our benefit so that we too will not fall after the same example of unbelief. Look at the two who simply refused to doubt and their end, and the 600,000+ who refused to believe and their end.

This is what has brought the church to become just a shadow of what it was in the book of Acts. This is the cause of the divisions, the worldliness, the lack of power. We have missed the fact that Jesus came to save us from our sins, not in them. We have all slept and ignored the plain truths of God that have sat here all these years right in front of us. But the bride is awakening to the righteousness it has in Christ. It is awakening to the fullbenefit of what the new covenant did for us that the old could never do, set us free indeed.

Blessings,

Bruce

Brother, I understand the confusion satan has thrown in on the scripture you quote.
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No confusion here BruceG....

A final stern warning to you BruceG,

I'd be careful WHO you are calling the Devil, the Pharisees and Scribes of Jesus's Day.. called the Holy Ghost that was Upon Jesus... the 'work' of satan, or the devil....

I know the One who Lives in Me.. and He is Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, this thru the Eternal Spirit, the Holy Ghost...

it looks like it is no different today...

I 'know' what your agenda is BruceG, I've come across individuals like you.. whose sole agenda is that they 'convince' others that they can become perfected in their 'flesh'... becoming without 'sin'...to the point to where they have reached a state of 'godhood'...

what you teach and preach... this your 'sole' agenda doesnt suprise me.. because these types of teachings are ordained for these last days.. becoming as 'god'.. or a little jesus or little elhoem.. and your theology and teaching... leads one to believe that... your teachings fall right into that 'lie' which is predicted to come alive.. that delusion...

I wish I could sit you down in a room , and look into your eyes and 'see' who is in the 'house'.... if I'm discerning correctly by your own agenda on 'dividing the Word'... I 'know' who is in the house... the "Light of the Body is the eye'... and from there I would listen to what you had to say...


there is no confusion in this 'house' BruceG, but the HOly Ghost lives Here.. and how do I know that..

because its He that reveals to me that the True Messiah, who is Jesus the Christ God manifest in the flesh, is the Only True Messiah..He is the True Living God, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob..
and In Him was No Sin,

I'm not becoming a 'little god', or a little Elohem, but a Son thru Adoption and belief on what my True Brother Did for me, that would be Jesus the Christ.. what He did on that bloody Tree...

once again BruceG, a final stern Warning,

be careful 'who' you are calling the 'devil'..

all manner of sin and blasphemey shall be forgiven unto men, and he/she that speaketh a word against the Son of Man, he/she shall be forgiven, BUT unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost, he/she hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of Eternal Damnation.

this was Jesus's Stern Warning to the religious leaders of His day... these who were ''wise' in their own eyes... and daily studying the Word of God.. but with their Own Interprestation, absent of the Spirit of Truth..

it is absolutely no different Today.....