Dead to self or dying to self?

[HisLeast]

Please understand, I am not teaching a state of sinlessness, what some call "sinless perfectionism", but a place of refuge from sin and the fleshly nature, so that it touches us not. Outside of abiding in Christ, we are always weak, but it is as we learn to abide in Him and the victory he has wrought for us, we find the promises are true, every single one of them.

What does that mean practically.
What is the distinction between a life void of sin and "a place where sin touches us not"?

The question is never "Am I sinless?" for the answer will always be "No". Rather the question is "Can God truly keep us from falling as He has clearly promised us?" And if on a continual basis, a man abides in the rest for a year,five years, thirty years, kept from falling, he has indeed walked in a victory over sin, but it has never been him but simply Christ in Him.

I've asked before, and I'll ask again. I'm asking about end result only, not where the effort is coming from or by what dynamic is achieved: Is the person's life sinless?
If not, then what is the practical difference between "sinless" and "God keeping us from falling". Remember, END RESULT. Is the end result a sinless life? Yes or no will do.

[BruceG]

What does that mean practically.
What is the distinction between a life void of sin and "a place where sin touches us not"?


I've asked before, and I'll ask again. I'm asking about end result only, not where the effort is coming from or by what dynamic is achieved: Is the person's life sinless?
If not, then what is the practical difference between "sinless" and "God keeping us from falling". Remember, END RESULT. Is the end result a sinless life? Yes or no will do.

Brother, you never seem to change in your tactics, LOL. Ok, perhaps a mental picture will help. Picture yourself as a 5th degree blackbelt with rippling muscles returning to the playground where two years ago, as a shy fat boy, you were routinely beaten up and humiliated. No one touches you now, right? No defeat is suffered.

Now picture returning as the same fat kid you were two years ago wth your new adopted brother now tagging along and he is 6'3 225# and a 5th degree black belt. The results are the same, the dynamics are quite different, are they not? Who got the benefit of the victory? Who caused the victory? Answer those and you will most likely have the answer you seek.

If answering further would pique your curiosity, I would try the best I could to satisfy a true hunger for knowledge. But, sadly, I do not feel this to be the case so if you do not mind, I will avoid debate here. I hold no resentment but will not play the game you seek, for we both know your goal here is not to edify but to trap, correct?

Look, brother, if you do not believe it possible to be brought to victory in this life, that is your choice and I respect your decision. If you are wrong, I pray you find the path that I speak of and I hold no ill will. If I choose to do so however, that is my right, and if I am wrong, I hope you pray that I become settled on the path that you speak of and that no ill will be held toward me. For all others, it is simply their choice do the same. In the meantime, we are called to love one another, and that is what I choose to do.

Blessings, Bruce

[BroRog]

Brother, you never seem to change in your tactics, LOL. Ok, perhaps a mental picture will help. Picture yourself as a 5th degree blackbelt with rippling muscles returning to the playground where two years ago, as a shy fat boy, you were routinely beaten up and humiliated. No one touches you now, right? No defeat is suffered.

Now picture returning as the same fat kid you were two years ago wth your new adopted brother now tagging along and he is 6'3 225# and a 5th degree black belt. The results are the same, the dynamics are quite different, are they not? Who got the benefit of the victory? Who caused the victory? Answer those and you will most likely have the answer you seek.

If answering further would pique your curiosity, I would try the best I could to satisfy a true hunger for knowledge. But, sadly, I do not feel this to be the case so if you do not mind, I will avoid debate here. I hold no resentment but will not play the game you seek, for we both know your goal here is not to edify but to trap, correct?

Look, brother, if you do not believe it possible to be brought to victory in this life, that is your choice and I respect your decision. If you are wrong, I pray you find the path that I speak of and I hold no ill will. If I choose to do so however, that is my right, and if I am wrong, I hope you pray that I become settled on the path that you speak of and that no ill will be held toward me. For all others, it is simply their choice do the same. In the meantime, we are called to love one another, and that is what I choose to do.

Blessings, Bruce

Hi Bruce, it has been my experience reading the posts of Hisleast that when he asks, "What does that mean practically?", he isn't asking for another metaphor or analogy.

I used to play the game "Beat the Analogy" with my friends. It was fun and taught me a lot about how language works. But when someone asks for the practical, they usually want an everyday example, or he is concerned with actual use. Bring it down from the Olympian heights of theory to practical experience and observation. He cited your statement in which you say that you are not teaching "sinless perfectionism" but "a place of refuge from sin . . . so that it touches us not." Your statement, however, seems like a distinction without a difference. What is sinless perfection if it isn't finding a refuge from sin so that it doesn't touch us?

Hisleast wants you to focus on the end result, presumably to suggest a small flaw in your presentation that I too have noticed. The problem with sin is well defined, but as we discuss the "solution", suddenly our vocabulary tends to become ambiguous, and our desciptions of the solution tend be abstract. For instance, you said earlier, "And if on a continual basis, a man abides in the rest . . . and etc." The term "rest" here is a metaphor for something. You don't literally mean that a lack of motion is the answer to our sin problem. You are using the term "rest" to indicate something else. But what?

You say,

And how do we enter into this victory, this rest? We must finally cease from our own labors, even as God did from His.

Here you use another metaphor to explain the first. Again, what does it mean to cease from labor? Surely you don't mean that if I quit my job, I will solve my problem with sin. We know you don't mean that. But what do you mean? We don't know. You talk about having victory over sin by allowing Jesus to do this for us, but what does that look like? What do you mean in practical terms? Another metaphor will simply keep the discussion in the abstract where it can't affect us.

[HisLeast]

Brother, you never seem to change in your tactics, LOL. Ok, perhaps a mental picture will help. Picture yourself as a 5th degree blackbelt with rippling muscles returning to the playground where two years ago, as a shy fat boy, you were routinely beaten up and humiliated. No one touches you now, right? No defeat is suffered.

Now picture returning as the same fat kid you were two years ago wth your new adopted brother now tagging along and he is 6'3 225# and a 5th degree black belt. The results are the same, the dynamics are quite different, are they not? Who got the benefit of the victory? Who caused the victory? Answer those and you will most likely have the answer you seek.

If answering further would pique your curiosity, I would try the best I could to satisfy a true hunger for knowledge. But, sadly, I do not feel this to be the case so if you do not mind, I will avoid debate here. I hold no resentment but will not play the game you seek, for we both know your goal here is not to edify but to trap, correct?

Look, brother, if you do not believe it possible to be brought to victory in this life, that is your choice and I respect your decision. If you are wrong, I pray you find the path that I speak of and I hold no ill will. If I choose to do so however, that is my right, and if I am wrong, I hope you pray that I become settled on the path that you speak of and that no ill will be held toward me. For all others, it is simply their choice do the same. In the meantime, we are called to love one another, and that is what I choose to do.

Blessings, Bruce

Is that a yes or a no?

Its as simple an inquiry as I can pose. You can try to make this about my "tactics" or about whether or not I'm "looking for a debate". You can make it about my character if you need to. I don't care. What I do care about is simple answers to simple questions. To that end I don't want "further" answers. I want clear answers.

So lets try this again....
What is the distinction between a life void of sin and "a place where sin touches us not"?
Is the end result a sinless life?

[BruceG]

Is that a yes or a no?

Its as simple an inquiry as I can pose. You can try to make this about my "tactics" or about whether or not I'm "looking for a debate". You can make it about my character if you need to. I don't care. What I do care about is simple answers to simple questions. To that end I don't want "further" answers. I want clear answers.

So lets try this again....
What is the distinction between a life void of sin and "a place where sin touches us not"?
Is the end result a sinless life?

I will say this...after a period of being "established in the faith", yes, the practical result is that sins that plagued a man before full submission and trust in God's promises are defeated in a man's life. He is not "sinless" but because the abiding has become established, because he has indeed learned to walk in the spirit, then the promise of the word comes into effect..

"Walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." This is a man who has learned to be kept by the power of God thru faith.

I pray you are serious in your search, for if you are, God will reward any diligent seeker. But if your motive is one that is not pure in motive, know that the subject will forever be a sealed book to any who are found content to continue in sin that grace may abound. May I humbly ask, which one are you?

Blessings,

Bruce

[HisLeast]

I pray you are serious in your search, for if you are, God will reward any diligent seeker. But if your motive is one that is not pure in motive, know that the subject will forever be a sealed book to any who are found content to continue in sin that grace may abound. May I humbly ask, which one are you?

Oh I get it. Those who seek clarity must not have genuine intentions, right?

My search is genuine Bruce. Genuine in a way that I neither expect you to believe, nor feel motivated to explain over and over and over again.

[BruceG]

I will be right back to reply

[Firefighter]

I think what His least, Roger, and I are getting at is if you still sin (just as we all do), what practical application does what you say have? If you have entered into His rest and ceased from labors and are in a place where sin touches you not, why is it you still sin? I guess we are missing the connection between "a place where sin touches you not" and "I still sin." How does sin not touch you yet you still sin like the rest of us? Please tell me you see a disconnect there.

On a side note, if you plan on teaching, you need to figure out a way to break things down to the lowest common denominator so that even a child can understand it without "Christianese", Theology Speak, or vague analogies. Say what you mean in plain simple terms that have a practical application. It is one of the hardest (but most helpful) things I ever learned as a pastor.


This is obviously from a different context, but it really drives the point home...

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

[BruceG]

Oh I get it. Those who seek clarity must not have genuine intentions, right?

My search is genuine Bruce. Genuine in a way that I neither expect you to believe, nor feel motivated to explain over and over and over again.

Brother, what is clearly explained in my answer is either oblivious to you or ignored by you. I have simply not used the words you are fishing for. Jesus said "He that commits sin is a servant to sin, and the servant abides not in the house forever. But whom the Son sets free is free indeed." What do you think he is telling us there? Will you demand till the end an explanation from Him or will you with childlike faith take what He says at face value, that for us to be free indeed, continuing to sin is not a part of what He had in mind.

jesus said "Sin shall not have dominion over you" and told us that with every temptation, he would not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able to stand, and that He would make a way of escape, so that we would be able to bear it. How clear must He speak to us before we accept what he clearly has said as the truth?

If we have not yet figured out how it is possible, that is a totally acceptable answer, IF we hunger after it with our whole hearts and are broken for our continued sinfulness and the fact we are not overcomers for Him.

Bruce

[Firefighter]

Jesus said "He that commits sin is a servant to sin, and the servant abides not in the house forever. But whom the Son sets free is free indeed." What do you think he is telling us there? Will you demand till the end an explanation from Him or will you with childlike faith take what He says at face value, that for us to be free indeed, continuing to sin is not a part of what He had in mind.

The question is never "Am I sinless?" for the answer will always be "No".

Do you not see a conflict here???

[BruceG]

I think what His least, Roger, and I are getting at is if you still sin (just as we all do), what practical application does what you say have? If you have entered into His rest and ceased from labors and are in a place where sin touches you not, why is it you still sin? I guess we are missing the connection between "a place where sin touches you not" and "I still sin." How does sin not touch you yet you still sin like the rest of us? Please tell me you see a disconnect there.

On a side note, if you plan on teaching, you need to figure out a way to break things down to the lowest common denominator so that even a child can understand it without "Christianese", Theology Speak, or vague analogies. Say what you mean in plain simple terms that have a practical application. It is one of the hardest (but most helpful) things I ever learned as a pastor.


This is obviously from a different context, but it really drives the point home...

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Brother I appreciate your words of advice. I will share tomorrow my testimony of how all this came about and the effect it has had on my life. Perhaps it will shed practical light on the subjext for you.

Blessings,

Bruce

[Firefighter]

That would be AWESOME...

[BruceG]

That would be AWESOME...

Let me try to get you some proper light on the subject for which I share that may help bring it down to earth and give you a more practical understanding of what I share and how it actually looks in real life.

I have been a Christian since I was saved at 21 in 1970 so I have been a believer for what.... 39 years? Scary. Since age 14, I have had a problem with pornography, as my Dad was very open with his "collection" he kept by his bedside. I had high hopes that as a Christian, I would find this disgusting sin to fall away but sadly it did not. For 37 of those 39 years, I suffered with this debilitating addiction and wih the advent of the computer age, it got far worse than earlier in my life. I hated it, truly hated it, an dhated myself and in truth hated a Christianity that offered me no practical answers. The battle inside me raged and the black dog always eventually wore me down, and I would be thrown into condemnation that made me despair for life itself. Mine was no "occasional problem" but a daily fix. I say this to my shame. i am not proud of it, but in understanding how bound I was, you will have a better perspective on what I share and why I share it so adamantly.

The truth is, many in the body suffer from truly powerful addictive sins, far more than we would think. Are these worse than normal Christian sins? Perhaps, but I found there is a blessing hidden there as well. If I simply struggled with playing the lottery twice a month, perhaps I would not have sought out God with such desperate intensity that I did. Those that are sick know they need a physician and they oftentimes seek it with far more desperation if the sin is of an addictive nature.

Anyway, two years ago I came to the end of my rope. I had fasted, prayed, memorized, attended, all to the nth degree, and all to no avail. I was rebuked to "just do it", which I now affectionately call the gospel according to Nike. I had no more schemes to try, or leaves to turn over, no hope and no strength. I was a broken man. I cried out to the Lord that unless He gave me a miracle, i would see hell as my abode when life ended. I longed to do His will. I could not. I refused to lower the standard that without holiness, no man shall see the lord, and thus I let the law judge me as guilty.

I will not go into detail but I did indeed have a supernatural visitation that amazing night and God brought me the wisdom that I simply share here, and obviously with lack of clarity! LOL. My mistake was that I had always thought I was too weak to obey, but I had been wrong. I had been too strong. I still thought obedience, overcoming temptation, was on my shoulders and that if I was to become victorious, I had to become stronger. The truth is, until we see our total inability to obey the law, to please God by our efforts, and fall at His feet for mercy and grace alone to set us free, we will continue to walk on in darkness. Mine had lasted 37 years. It is to them that have NO strength that He increases might. I had finally "arrived".

He then asked me if I had ever obeyed Romans 6:6 where we are told to "reckon ourselves dead indeed unto sin". We are told to yield ourselves to God "as those who are alive from the dead". I had done neither but what did I have to lose? I did so...out loud, and when I did, and my own ears heard my words, something sparked inside me...faith... and truth resonated within me and I saw for the first time the way of faithwas the path to the victory i so had sought in my own strength.

The promises of God are all for us, but will profit us only if they are mixed with faith.

"and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

From that night on, I held up the shield of faith and to my utter joy, found that it indeed worked. The truth is, pornography and lust were defeated that night and I can stare any in the face and have a clear conscience in saying that. The joy to be made an overcomer by faith alone is something I cannot put into words. The humility it has brought into my heart is unspeakable. I have nothing to be proud of, He did it all. I simply yielded in weakness and believed in our strong God.

If that was all that had happened because of this truth I share, that would have been enough, but there is far more. Little sins began to fall away, not overnight,but yet without a doubt, they began disappearing. Patience replaced a very impatient spirit. My very self-absorbed spirit became more loving, kinder, more gentle. Amazingly, self control which we normallly are taught we must rely on to defeat sin, came to me as a fruit of the spirit, just as it is promised. In short, what I share has worked and is working even now.

There is indeed a process of being "being established in the faith" as we learn to walk this new way.Can a man slip? Absilutely! But the question is "What do you do then?" Do you run back to self effort, or do you fall at the fet of our lord and say "Apart for you, I will always fall." and you seek even harder to believe!

The real process now begins after we have "put off"the oldman by faith. As we abide in Christ by faith. and His word abides in us, the transformation slowly but surely begins to occur. Through belief in the promises of God, we become partakers of His divine nature and we truly begin to be changed into the image of the Son. This part is indeed a lifelong process and as we get closer and closer to god, we are changed more and more into His likeness. This is "perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord".

Overcoming sin is not sinless perfectionism as we think it. It is not a "state of being" but rather a state of total dependance of a weak child on a strong father, and in so doing, victory is experienced.

I pray this helps somewhat. I am convinced that there is no sin, no addiction that is beyond the power of God in us to defeat, if we will but believe our God is able. Paul prayed of the Ephesians that "the eyes of their understanding would be enlightened that they might know the hope of His calling and the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, the very same power with which He raised Christ from the dead". Can we even wrap our heads around such a statement?

I have bared my soul before you. I have nothing to stand on but trust that our God cannot lie and as I have put Him to the test, He has proved Himself indeed able to save to the uttermost.

I pray these words help you in understanding better where I come from in my sharing. God has this walk for any and all who see their great need and His even greater willingness to cause us to walk in victory. I believe this is no small thing, but in truth will bring about the transformation of the Bride into a spotless virgin. We are to be His workmanship but we have been too busy acting as master potters that we have missed the fact he is simply looking for clay in His hands.

Blessings, and if I have seemed evasive in answering, I meant no disrespect. I hope you will find it in your hearts to forgive me.

Blessings to all,

Bruce

[Firefighter]

Much better. I am sure there will be a few questions, but I assure you, they will be genuine.

[BruceG]

Much better. I am sure there will be a few questions, but I assure you, they will be genuine.

Thank you, UM. Hey, would you mind if I ask your name? One thing I have found out aboutr forums, it is much more condusive to true sharing if there is a person attached to a moniker. It makes it more real. I of course am Bruce. Nice to meet you.

Blessings