Dead to self or dying to self?

[Firefighter]

My name is Chris.

[BruceG]

My name is Chris.

Chris, very nice to meet you. I look forward to having some meaningful discussion on this subject and doing it in love.

I hope you realize that it is because of the desperate state I found myself and the amazing and undeserved change God has granted me that I am so motivated and zealous to share what I feel will allow many to find true freedom in their walks that up til now they have not enjoyed.

This is not just "theory" but I have truly found it works, and if it works for a man who was truly incapable of walking pleasing to God like I was, it will work for any who hunger for a victory that they have not been able to find previously.

God bless.

Bruce

[Vhayes]

Bruce, i think Paul said it this way:
II Corinthians 4
15 - For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

16 - Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

day by day. A renewal, a growth.

[BruceG]

Bruce, i think Paul said it this way:
II Corinthians 4
15 - For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

16 - Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

day by day. A renewal, a growth.

Absolutely! The process of being changed into the image of the Son is an ongoing one that lasts a lifetime. BUT, the process of getting out of the grip of the flesh is not. Paul says clearly in Rmans 6 that like as Christ died ONCE to sin, so did we. How does Paul ask us now to yield ourselves to God.... as men trying to daily kill the old nature, or as those that are alive from the dead? If in our hearts, we accept the lie that we are still captive to the flesh, then how can we yield ourselves to God as alive from the dead, and accpet that sin shall not have dominion over us? It is simply impossible.

Many assume Paul supported the stance of many that you are to "die daily", but if you read the verse, it has nothing to do with that thought line. Paul is simply saying as an apostle, he faces death in the face every day.

We are clearly told "but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwells in you." We can never grow out of the flesh. We ARE out of the flesh, if we have been baptised into Christ, but as long as we buy satan's lie that we are not, our labor will be in vain. Until we believe the words of Jesus that by faith, we "put off" the old man, we can never "put on" the new. We are never 60% flesh and 40% spirit. We are one or we are the other. And what determines this?

"according to your faith be it unto you."

Bruce

[HisLeast]

[SIZE="4"][FONT="Franklin Gothic Medium"]
Absolutely! The process of being changed into the image of the Son is an ongoing one that lasts a lifetime. BUT, the process of getting out of the grip of the flesh is not. Paul says clearly in Rmans 6 that like as Christ died ONCE to sin, so did we. How does Paul ask us now to yield ourselves to God.... as men trying to daily kill the old nature, or as those that are alive from the dead? If in our hearts, we accept the lie that we are still captive to the flesh, then how can we yield ourselves to God as alive from the dead, and accpet that sin shall not have dominion over us? It is simply impossible.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record... but what does that mean?

[BruceG]

I know I'm sounding like a broken record... but what does that mean?

Let me see if I can bring this to a deeper understanding for you, LOL.

You are broke. You live under a bridge. A good meal for you is a hot one. A good nights sleep is when crazy Sadie does not scream out five times "The dog DID eat my homework!" A vacation for you is when they bus you to the next town to help you get "re-established."

One day, a man shows up under the bridge ands he askes for you. He is wearing a suit. "Nothing good shows up in a suit", you think to yourself. He introduces himself as a lawyer. Now you KNOW nothing good is going to come of this.

He then informs you your great uncle who you never knew has passed a way, and you were the only living relative remaining. You have been left his entire fortune, 50 Million dollars. An escrow account in your name has been set up and all that is required is that you show up and claim what is yours.

You are rich, no matter how you slice or dice it. Filty, stinking rich. However, your previous experience with lawyers convinces you to doubt the veracity of his words. "No such thing as a free lunch" you think, except on Tuesdays at the mission, of course. "Hey, it IS Tuesday! I am gonna be late. Darned lawyer, almost made me miss the best meal of the week!" And that was the end of that.

The things God has freely given His children are only useable IF we believe them and act accordingly.

"But the words of God did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard them."

[HisLeast]

Let me see if I can bring this to a deeper understanding for you, LOL.

You are broke. You live under a bridge. A good meal for you is a hot one. A good nights sleep is when crazy Sadie does not scream out five times "The dog DID eat my homework!" A vacation for you is when they bus you to the next town to help you get "re-established."

One day, a man shows up under the bridge ands he askes for you. He is wearing a suit. "Nothing good shows up in a suit", you think to yourself. He introduces himself as a lawyer. Now you KNOW nothing good is going to come of this.

He then informs you your great uncle who you never knew has passed a way, and you were the only living relative remaining. You have been left his entire fortune, 50 Million dollars. An escrow account in your name has been set up and all that is required is that you show up and claim what is yours.

You are rich, no matter how you slice or dice it. Filty, stinking rich. However, your previous experience with lawyers convinces you to doubt the veracity of his words. "No such thing as a free lunch" you think, except on Tuesdays at the mission, of course. "Hey, it IS Tuesday! I am gonna be late. Darned lawyer, almost made me miss the best meal of the week!" And that was the end of that.

The things God has freely given His children are only useable IF we believe them and act accordingly.

"But the words of God did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard them."

This has nothing to do with what I asked.

[BruceG]

This has nothing to do with what I asked.

Brother, I have done the best I can. LOL. I would suggest at this point you simply pray and ask God what it all means.

Be blessed

Bruce

[Vhayes]

Absolutely! The process of being changed into the image of the Son is an ongoing one that lasts a lifetime. BUT, the process of getting out of the grip of the flesh is not. Paul says clearly in Rmans 6 that like as Christ died ONCE to sin, so did we. How does Paul ask us now to yield ourselves to God.... as men trying to daily kill the old nature, or as those that are alive from the dead? If in our hearts, we accept the lie that we are still captive to the flesh, then how can we yield ourselves to God as alive from the dead, and accpet that sin shall not have dominion over us? It is simply impossible.

Many assume Paul supported the stance of many that you are to "die daily", but if you read the verse, it has nothing to do with that thought line. Paul is simply saying as an apostle, he faces death in the face every day.

We are clearly told "but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwells in you." We can never grow out of the flesh. We ARE out of the flesh, if we have been baptised into Christ, but as long as we buy satan's lie that we are not, our labor will be in vain. Until we believe the words of Jesus that by faith, we "put off" the old man, we can never "put on" the new. We are never 60% flesh and 40% spirit. We are one or we are the other. And what determines this?

"according to your faith be it unto you."

Bruce

Galatians 5
16 - But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

17 - For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

Then what does Paul mean in these verses? He clearly says the spirit and the flesh ARE IN opposition to each each, not WERE in opposition to each other.

I understand the victory you have in your struggle against a sin that was crippling you. I also appreciate that victory and thank God for it. But Bruce, I gotta tell you, you, like all others in this world have OTHER areas that need perfecting.

I agree also with this statement:

We are never 60% flesh and 40% spirit. We are one or we are the other.

That's the reason for I John 1:9
9 - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There are days I use this verse at least 10 times. There are other days when I use it less often. But there has never been a day in my life since becoming a Christian 30 plus years ago that I have no need of that verse - I sin daily. Mostly mental attitude sins like pride or impatience - sometimes trust is an issue, but it's still sin. And I have to tell our Father that I "did it" - whatever "it" might be, so I can be 100% in His grace. In other words, either I drive the bus or the Holy Spirit drives the bus.

Does that make sense?
V

[HisLeast]

Brother, I have done the best I can. LOL. I would suggest at this point you simply pray and ask God what it all means.

Right.... like I haven't been doing that for the past 20 years. Instead, can you please explain the following in practical terms?

The process of being changed into the image of the Son is an ongoing one that lasts a lifetime. BUT, the process of getting out of the grip of the flesh is not. Paul says clearly in Rmans 6 that like as Christ died ONCE to sin, so did we. How does Paul ask us now to yield ourselves to God.... as men trying to daily kill the old nature, or as those that are alive from the dead? If in our hearts, we accept the lie that we are still captive to the flesh, then how can we yield ourselves to God as alive from the dead, and accpet that sin shall not have dominion over us? It is simply impossible.

This tells me ...
- There is a difference between "being changed into the image of the son" and "getting out of hte grip of the flesh" (neither of these terms I understand practically anymore).
- That if one rightly applied Paul's teaching, there would be no more sin in one's life ever after.

I can reconcile neither of these points with what I observe of reality. I ask you again to provide any clarity you can.

[BruceG]

Right.... like I haven't been doing that for the past 20 years. Instead, can you please explain the following in practical terms?


This tells me ...
- There is a difference between "being changed into the image of the son" and "getting out of hte grip of the flesh" (neither of these terms I understand practically anymore).
- That if one rightly applied Paul's teaching, there would be no more sin in one's life ever after.

I can reconcile neither of these points with what I observe of reality. I ask you again to provide any clarity you can.

I pray God helps me here so that I can make it clear to you, my dear brother.

We have inherited a fallen nature, the flesh, and it is in rebellion to God and likes to sin. God desires to inhabit us, but cannot, for he is holy and cannot be in the presence of sin. So he has sent his son to die in our place, to take the punishment we deserve. If we are baptised into Christ, HGis death becomes ours. We are truly freed from the requirements of the law. It's demand for justice has been fulfilled. It states, the soul that sinneth,iti shall die. We died with Him. So, we are freed from the grip of the law.

Is this important? Absolutely. The strength of sin is the law. Where there is no law, there is no breaking of the law, which is what sin is. This is why the writer of Hebrews said this:

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins."

It is only when we by faith believe the promise of God that "he that is dead is freed from sin", and accept the victory that Christ has given us, that Christ can now truly live inside us. It is this abiding in the vine that we are called to. It is this resting in Him, where we are the clay, he is the potter, that allows the process to begin whereby we begin to truly be changed into his image from glory to glory.

Our old way, the process of killing the old man by our efforts, a bit at a time, is simply not truth. The old man does not die willingly. He must be killed by faith in the promises of God.

"and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

Blessings, bruce

[simpleton]

Bruce, I just joined this forum mainly because of your posts on this thread. They were an encouragement for me as you describe exactly where we (my wife & I) are in our understanding as we enter the golden years. I realize this thread is over two years old but if you are still around, is there a way we can connect privately through email? Fred

[poorinspirit]

Bruce, I just joined this forum mainly because of your posts on this thread. They were an encouragement for me as you describe exactly where we (my wife & I) are in our understanding as we enter the golden years. I realize this thread is over two years old but if you are still around, is there a way we can connect privately through email? Fred

If you click on Bruce's username, and hit profile, you will be taken to his profile to see that the last visit here was Dec. 25th 2010. There are different links on that page where one could send a private message or e-mail him. Not sure if he will answer, but you may have a chance to contact him that way.

[simpleton]

If you click on Bruce's username, and hit profile, you will be taken to his profile to see that the last visit here was Dec. 25th 2010. There are different links on that page where one could send a private message or e-mail him. Not sure if he will answer, but you may have a chance to contact him that way.

Thank you - I will try that...