Member
Ok, i am a confusion, One of my friend, saying.
The Lord elected me or you, then We're believe in Him.
We didn't elected him in the first place? is that true?
John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. "
This is HARDLY for me able to understand.
Coffee Break
No, it's not true. That verse is being used out of context. In Context John 15:16 is speaking of the apostles. Notice the verse says I have chosen you that you should bear fruit, it DOES NOT say I have chosen you to be saved.Originally Posted by Jreyes78
Ok, i am a confusion, One of my friend, saying.
The Lord elected me or you, then We're believe in Him.
We didn't elected him in the first place? is that true?
John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. "
This is HARDLY for me able to understand.
justme
If the context of John 15 is referring only to the apostles, then everything said within that context applies only to the apostles. Are you sure you want to go there?
But what does scripture say elsewhere?
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
God knew from the beginning who would believe. They are the ones He has chosen.
pulverized corn grain
Welcome to Bibleforums, Jreyes78.Ok, i am a confusion, One of my friend, saying.
The Lord elected me or you, then We're believe in Him.
We didn't elected him in the first place? is that true?
John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
This is HARDLY for me able to understand.
Yes, John 15:16, as with every part of the Bible, is indeed true, but you're not alone in being confused over the Biblical doctrine of election. Many, if not most Christians find confusion and some difference of opinion and interpretation on the details of what the Bible presents in how God has planned our salvation and chosen us. I believe Ephesians 1:3-14 explains it best:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." (NASB)I believe we are first chosen by God, and then in time we choose Him. We sure have a lot of discussions here about the issue, however, so there's certainly room for differences of opinion.
From our looking at the process of what God has done and is doing in our lives, we especially see our choice, our decision, our election of Him; yet the Bible teaches us that God had and has a plan and purpose long before we even begin to think about God or making a choice of choosing Him. We might not realize beforehand what God has done and is doing, or what God's plans are for us or others, but God works in our lives according to His plans for us. We do not live or die without God's purposes.
Earlier in John's Gospel, in chapter 10, Jesus speaks of His sheep and how they know His voice; He says, "I know My own and My own know Me" (v. 14), and "I lay down My life for the sheep" (v.15). And in verse 16 He says of other of His sheep, "I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." He says, "I must bring them", and "they will hear". Many of those who heard Him say these words and yet did not hear, did not understand, said, "He has a demon and is insane". Jesus made clear to certain of the Pharisees in John 8:19 that they did not know God because they did not know Jesus. They did not recognize the Good Shepherd because they were not His sheep.
In writing to Timothy, the Apostle Paul also explains that our salvation and calling is not by our our works, not by our action of choice, but by God's own purpose and grace given to us from before the world began, but then revealed and brought to light for us in Christ and the gospel:
"Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim. 1:8-10, NASB).
Last edited by grit; Apr 2nd 2010 at 02:53 PM.
Coffee Break
Well, first let me say that Just because Christ is speaking of the apostles in John 15 does not mean everything He says only applies to them. For instance, Jesus can say to the apostles, I have chosen you. This statement would mean that Christ chose them and only them. He could also say to the apostles, anyone who believes shall have eternal life. Now, while that statement was made to the apostles it is applicable to anyone who believes, so we have to pay particular attention to the wording of the sentence. Having said that since Christ died around A.D. 33, I don't think he has chosen anyone after that, except Paul.
From the beginning of what? The Gospel, time, eternity??? Also, Paul is addressing a collective group here, the church. He is not addressing individuals. What does this collective group have in common? They all believe in Christ. What did Jesus say?2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
John 6:40 ( KJV )
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Since Paul does not give a time frame for "The beginning" it seems he could very well mean from the time when Christ came, the beginning of the Gospel.
This passage was written to Jewish Christians, the Jews were a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation and a perculair people. All of these titles can be found in the OT referencing the Jews.1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Everyone who believes is called chosen and faithful if they continue in Christ.Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
The point is that none of these passages speak of someone being unconditionally elected to salvation.
Preparing
If you are that confused, then something is wrong somewhere. The gospel and salvation is not complicated. If we are to view it as with the mind of a child, it shouldn't be confusing.
Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
Not second or third, but first.
Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
when He is the source of all hope,
when His love is received and freely given,
holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
will all other things be added unto to you.
Member
Wow, thanks everyone, i will study by myself, soon. thanks a thousand, Bro or sis in Christ, God bless you.
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