Veteran
Hi moonglow.
I read the study you provided and thought it was very good except for the part where the man of sin meets his end. Thessalonians says he is destroyed by the (2nd) coming of Jesus, which Nero was not. The passage seems to parallel Re.19 where Jesus actually returns to earth and hurls the beast into the lof.
Formerly moonglow
Did you read this part too?Originally Posted by pekoe
http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt550.htm
The Lord Will Consume
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders. (2 Thess. 2:8-9)[32]
As just indicated, the lawless one was eventually openly revealed. The mystery form of his character gave way to a revelation of his lawlessness in Nero's wicked acts. This occurred after the restrainer [Claudius, who maintained religio licita] was "taken out of the way," allowing Nero the public stage upon which he could act out his horrendous lawlessness.
According to Hendriksen verse eight destroys any preterist interpretation identifying the Man of Lawlessness with the Roman emperor, because it ties the events to the era of the Second Advent.[33] The strong preteristic indications in the passage heretofore, however, demand a different understanding of the destructive coming of Christ here mentioned. As already shown in the discussion of verse 1, Matthew 24:30 is most relevant here: "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." And that verse is specifically applied to the first century (Matt. 24:34), as is Revelation 1:7[34] (cp. Rev. 1:1, 3); Matthew 26:63-65; and Mark 9:1. Christ comes in judgment upon Jerusalem in the events of A.D. 67-70.
In that judgment-coming against Jerusalem there is also judgment for the Man of Lawlessness, Nero. There is hope and comfort in the promised relief from the opposition of the Jews and Nero (2 Thess. 2:15-17). Not only was Jerusalem destroyed within twenty years, but Nero himself died a violent death in the midst of the Jewish War (June 8, A.D. 68). His death, then, would occur in the Day of the Lord in conjunction with the judgment-coming of Christ. He will be destroyed by the breath of Christ, much like Assyria was destroyed with the coming and breath of the LORD in the Old Testament (Isa. 30:27-31) and like Israel was crushed by Babylon (Mic. 1:3-5). In fact, by God's providence Nero's death stopped the Jewish War briefly so that Christians trapped in Jerusalem could escape (cp. 1 Thess. 1:10).[35] The Man of Lawlessness/Beast, Nero Caesar, dies in the Day of the Lord with the Great Harlot, Jerusalem (Rev. 19:17-21; cf. Rev. 22:6, 10, 12).
Conclusion
The Man of Lawlessness passage is to be preteristically understood for several reasons:
(1) Obvious parallels with Matthew 24 and Revelation 13 tie it into their era of accomplishment: the late A.D. 60s up to A.D. 70 (Matt. 24:34; Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).
(2) The reference to the Temple as still standing (2:4).
(3) The present restraining of the Man of Lawlessness (2:6).
(4) The knowledge of the Thessalonians regarding the restrainer (2:6).
(5) The contemporary operation of the Man of Lawlessness in mystery form during Paul's day (2:7).
(6) The overall relevant correspondence of the features with the contemporary situation in which the Thessalonicans found themselves.
The fulfillment of this dreadful prophecy of Scripture does not haunt our future. Its accomplishment lies in our distant past. It was a relevant warning of events looming in the first century.
God bless
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Veteran
Hi moonglow.
Yes I did read it and I think the author is dead wrong on that point.
Of course they do, but the author is assuming his "strong preteristic indications" are correct. They might not be.The strong preteristic indications in the passage heretofore, however, demand a different understanding of the destructive coming of Christ here mentioned.
While some of these scriptures relate to 1st century events, (destruction of temple etc.), some of them do not (every person seeing Jesus return, etc).As already shown in the discussion of verse 1, Matthew 24:30 is most relevant here: "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." And that verse is specifically applied to the first century (Matt. 24:34), as is Revelation 1:7[34] (cp. Rev. 1:1, 3); Matthew 26:63-65; and Mark 9:1. Christ comes in judgment upon Jerusalem in the events of A.D. 67-70.
This description doesn't mesh with Re.19:20-21, where Jesus destroys both the beast and his army.In that judgment-coming against Jerusalem there is also judgment for the Man of Lawlessness, Nero. There is hope and comfort in the promised relief from the opposition of the Jews and Nero (2 Thess. 2:15-17). Not only was Jerusalem destroyed within twenty years, but Nero himself died a violent death in the midst of the Jewish War (June 8, A.D. 68).
I'll tell you moonglow, I'm not crazy about this term being used..."judgement-coming of Christ." It's an invented term to explain away scripture that indicates the "actual" coming of Christ. Paul says the man of sin will be destroyed by the "brightness of His coming". Revelation says the armies of Heaven are following Jesus when the beast and his armies make war with Jesus, not Jerusalem. It doesn't fit.His death, then, would occur in the Day of the Lord in conjunction with the judgment-coming of Christ. He will be destroyed by the breath of Christ, much like Assyria was destroyed with the coming and breath of the LORD in the Old Testament (Isa. 30:27-31) and like Israel was crushed by Babylon (Mic. 1:3-5). In fact, by God's providence Nero's death stopped the Jewish War briefly so that Christians trapped in Jerusalem could escape (cp. 1 Thess. 1:10).[35] The Man of Lawlessness/Beast, Nero Caesar, dies in the Day of the Lord with the Great Harlot, Jerusalem (Rev. 19:17-21; cf. Rev. 22:6, 10, 12).
Jesus may have been referring to the generation alive who would witness these events, not necessarily the people the "generation" alive in the 1st century.Conclusion
The Man of Lawlessness passage is to be preteristically understood for several reasons:
(1) Obvious parallels with Matthew 24 and Revelation 13 tie it into their era of accomplishment: the late A.D. 60s up to A.D. 70 (Matt. 24:34; Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).
Again, could be referring to a future temple.(2) The reference to the Temple as still standing (2:4).
"Present" only if you understand Paul as speaking of the restrainer as another human.(3) The present restraining of the Man of Lawlessness (2:6).
We don't know who they understood the restrainer to be. One thing is certain....they didn't know at that time who the man of sin was.(4) The knowledge of the Thessalonians regarding the restrainer (2:6).
Paul seems to have been speaking of the mystery of sin itself, not "the man of sin."(5) The contemporary operation of the Man of Lawlessness in mystery form during Paul's day (2:7).
And this is the persuasive argument againt 1st century fulfillment. Paul begins the chapter by addressing the actual return of Jesus, not a "judgement coming".(6) The overall relevant correspondence of the features with the contemporary situation in which the Thessalonicans found themselves.
There are too many problems here to make an emphatic statement like this. I'd be careful with this moonglow.The fulfillment of this dreadful prophecy of Scripture does not haunt our future. Its accomplishment lies in our distant past. It was a relevant warning of events looming in the first century.
Last edited by pekoe; Apr 3rd 2010 at 05:20 PM. Reason: quote marks
Formerly moonglow
That is fine to disagree...you asked what my views were on this so I told you. I don't have time to address everything you bought up but this article does address some of it..which I agree with obviously..lol. I realize my views don't fit the popular views of today. They are radically different and most are a little freaked out by them having been raised with always hearing the third temple will be build, etc, etc...I used to believe in pre-trib rapture ..but after years of studies all end time views, this one fits the best for me:
http://blog.absolutetruth.us/index.p....html#extended
Let me start by saying the reason why the church has missed the meaning of so many verses is because of the lack up understanding the (language, culture, politics and historical setting in which the Bible was originally written. The first thing we MUST do is study to see what the language meant to them in there historical and culture setting.
How were they to understand the term (every eye will see him). The first thing we must do is see how that term was used in the Old Testament historical setting. How was that language used before?
Historical Background.
It seems to have escaped the notice that this language was used before. Surely the Bible student will want to be fully aware of how the verse is used before in contexts.
And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for Him. As one mourns for an only son, and will be bitter over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone. (Zechariah 12:10-14.)
Interestingly, John the author of Revelation used Zechariah 12:10-14. The main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal of Jesus to the nation of Israel. The place of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e., the Jews.
The Hebrew word for family in Zechariah is mishpachah and it means family; by extension a tribe or people. So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the tribes of the land would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those tribes? The inhabitants of Jerusalem. This also helps us identify the earth in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the earth is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would look on Me whom they had pierced. And because of that, the mourning in Jerusalem would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the tribes of the earth in Revelation 1:7are the nation of Israel. The earth is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.
Notice also that Zechariah does NOT say all the world will see him. Zechariah says the inhabitants of Jerusalem would see him.
We must keep the simple rule of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Or finding out how they understood the language. In John 19:37 as Jesus hung on the cross the event was also a fulfillment of Zechariah's words
As shown Zechariah 12:10-14 is the background for Revelation 1:7 and the context demands the event be in the first century generation. Our Lord also employed the language of Zechariah/Revelation in such a way that all controversy as to WHEN and WHO it would happen should be dispelled
I don't know who completely ignore the context of Zechariah/Revelation by saying we will all see Him with our spiritual eyes at the point of death, therefore all will indeed see Him at the point in our individual transition.
I agree this person completely side steps all the context. Now lets see how they understood the verses about clouds in there original language, culture, and historical setting in which they were written.
How did they understand the language about clouds in the Old Testament culture setting?
Clouds are depicted as the chariots of God and indicative of his MAJESTY. In Job 22:12ff Job exalts Jehovah as the one who is in the height of heaven and covered with thick clouds. In Psalm 18 which is a highly apocalyptic description of David's deliverance from Saul the former shepherd tells how Jehovah bowed the heavens...and came down with darkness under his feet, he rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. Now one can look but in vain to find a physical event matching these words. Jehovah had acted to deliver his servant and thus he had come. He had acted and his actions had vindicated his righteousness, thus he was depicted as coming in majesty in the clouds. Psalm 68:32-35 also speaks of God who rides on the heaven of heavens and his strength is in the clouds. Again the concept is his majesty and sovereignty. Psalms 104:3 tells us God makes the clouds his chariots and walks on the wings of the wind.
The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with the exercise of his sovereignty in JUDGING his enemies. In Isaiah 19 Jehovah rides on a swift cloud and will come into Egypt. We know from chapter 20 that it was the Assyrians who were God's instrument of wrath on Egypt, see Isaiah 20:1-4; yet it is said that Jehovah was coming on a cloud. In Zephaniah 1:14-16 we are told the great day of the Lord is near; and that it would be a day of wrath, distress, and a day of clouds, when the Lord would come. We know this is a prediction of the impending judgment on Jerusalem, 1:4ff. This judgment came in 606-586 BC.
Similar language is found in Nahum in the prediction of Nineveh's fall. Jehovah has his way in the whirlwind...and the clouds are the dust of his feet. El Shaddai would come, the mountains would melt, the earth would be destroyed at his presence when he came on the clouds. We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of Jehovah out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in approximately 612 BC.
Yet another though related concept of the coming with the clouds is the Messianic motif of Daniel. In Daniel 7 one like the Son of man is depicted as coming in the clouds of heaven. This concept of Messiah on the clouds was certainly one well known in the first century. For John to say in Revelation 1:7 that Jesus would come with the clouds was nothing less than an assertion of his Messianic role as the ruler of the kingdom of God. In his coming in the clouds he was exercising the sovereignty and demonstrating the majesty of deity so well known in the Old Covenant. The idea is not a literal coming with the clouds so much as an identifying factor of the one under consideration. He is to be viewed not just as man but the One, who, like Jehovah, rides on the clouds. The association of Jesus coming in the clouds then was a way for the Biblical writers to IDENTIFY Jesus, in a manner well known to those conversant with Old Testament symbolism, as God's Messiah, as the Judge, worthy of majesty and honor.
This is precisely the thought Jesus was conveying to Caiaphas when he told him he would see him coming in the clouds. When Jesus said he was going to come in the clouds this was a claim to the Messianic office and divine nature; Caiaphas responded, He has spoken blasphemy Caiaphas was not responding to a claim that Jesus would literally return on a physical cloud. He was responding to the IDENTITY which Jesus was claiming by associating himself as the one to come in the clouds of heaven
One final thought. We would note the New Testament TIME FRAME for the coming of Jesus in the clouds. Patently Jesus told Caiaphas he would see Jesus' return in the clouds. He did not say he would die and millenia later be resurrected to view the parousia. He was living and was told he would witness Jesus' return, which we hope is now understood to be the exercise of his Messianic sovereignty by an act of judgment.
In Matthew 24:30-34 we are told emphatically that the disciples' generation would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. Reader, how can the honest student of the word ignore such emphatic chronological parameters? How can we divorce Revelation 1:7 and the promise of the coming in the clouds, from Revelation 1:1-3 and the prediction it must shortly come to pass and was at hand ?
All these things are profound but easily understood as long as we take the time to study them in their original (language, culture, politics and historical setting in which the Bible was originally written.
God Bless
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Veteran
moonglow,
That's a good argument sis. I'm going to have to fine comb this teaching. As Arnold once said, "I'll be back"...
in a week or so. Thanks for your patience.
Posting Freak
Can I say that's a good post !
guest
There is not going to be a Third temple. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not ever!
Sad thing that believers are so confused that they cannot see that Christ is the Final Temple.
all the best...
Regardless of what we as Christians know about the temple or what will happen, regardless of our Christian point of view as to will it be rebuilt or not, is all moot because this issue is from the standpoint of those Jews in Israel and abroad WHO DO want the third temple.
That's what it's all about, they want it, needless to say, they WILL get it.
It is a known fact with the religious Jews, the ones who do not accept Christ as Messiah, can only have their expected Messiah if there is an existing temple.
From their standpoint, no temple means that God can NEVER return for them because in their teaching, this REQUIRES a temple.
It's one of those "de facto" things.
So, that means beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Dome of the Rock has to be physically removed.
That in itself or even attempting it will cause terrorists, Muslims or radical Muslims all around the world to go into global jihad mode.
Prophecy states on many occasion that the nations of the world will turn against Israel. It is at this point in prophecy, the removal or attempted removal of the Dome of the Rock, that I think wherein fits all those statements that all the nations will turn against Israel because they will blame all the deaths and bombings in their country on Israel for razing or attempting to dispose of the Dome of the Rock.
Any such move against the Dome of the Rock will cause world wide chaos because the terrorists, Muslims or radical Muslims of the world will start retaliating against those nations that have any affiliation with or support for Israel.
After studying it long and hard, I have never found one item, NOT ONE, in all the possible future events that would qualify or induce the nations of the world to be against Israel. Once Israel makes a move against the Dome of the Rock, any nations affiliated with or supporting Israel will be under relentless attack in public places by terrorists, Muslims or Radical Muslims.
You think things are bad now with terrorist attacks? Wait until it is time to remove the Dome of the Rock and you may wish Israel had never been instituted in 1948.
It is also why I think that all out war with Iran is only a matter of time for the purpose of keeping nuclear weapons out of Iran's hands because if Iran has nuclear capabilities at the time that Israel makes a move against the Dome of the Rock, it is a given that Iran will not hesitate to vaporize Tel-Aviv, Haifa, Rishon, Lezion or Ashdod.
If Iran is not interdicted with a preemptive war before any move against the Dome of the Rock transpires then that only means that Israels cities will go up in radio active balls of fire.
Everything going on right now is not about terrorism or terrorists or oil or profit but it is all part and parcel to and the precursor to paving the way for the Dome of the Rock to be removed and the third temple being rebuilt while providing as much relative safety to Israel as possible in the run up to that event.
It will happen beyond of a shadow of a doubt because the future antichrist will be standing in this yet to be rebuilt temple and claim to be God.
Now I just told you what is going to happen. You can accept it or not.
Saved by Grace
I don't see any problem. Both viewpoints are valid. From a Christian perspective we don't have any interest in the rebuilding of the third temple at all. Our faith is spiritual and leaves no place for a physical temple. That is what we should also tell the Jews because even for them the rebuilding of the temple is actually an act of continued rebellion against Christ.The OP asked for my "thoughts" on a third temple building. I gave my thoughts (not a Jew's, not a Muslim's, not an atheist's), which just so happens to be a "Christian perspective". Where's the problem?
Yet, the Bible clearly states that the temple will be rebuilt and what antichrist will do in that temple. I would warn a Jew against it and invite him to accept Christ as his Saviour. But present preparations the rebuild the temple are interesting and a clear sign that more prophecy is to be fulfilled.
Very good post! I most definitely agree that there WILL be a 3rd temple built. I believe Scripture supports that. It really doesn't matter what we Christians think SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be done......it is from their perspective. They want a temple, they believe they need it. Just because we Christians know the truth about the Messiah and sacrifices, doesn't mean that they accept that. They will accomplish what they feel they are called to do.
I am interested in the theory of the removal of the Dome of the Rock for a temple to be built, but have you ruled out the possibility of a temple co-existing with the Dome of the Rock on temple mount? I have heard it proposed that all that would be needed would be a small tabernacle like structure that could be put there without removal of the DOTR.
But we aren't talking about Christians here. I don't see the confusion you speak of. It is not Christians who are wanting and trying to rebuild the temple for sacrificing. It is the orthodox Jews who have not accepted Jesus as Messiah.
Road less travelled
2 Thess 2 could be translated as "settles himself in God's most holy place".
Even from a futurist perspective, the temple does not actually have to be built for the antichrist to come, we know that the temple mount is still the most sacred place on earth, and it is here that the man of sin will manifest himself.
Veteran
One point about the preteriat viewpoint of Nero fulfilling the prophecy of the man of sin entering the temple. If Nero was the beast and "the world" was Jerusalem, how do preterists account for the the world worshipping the beast? The Jews didn't wordhip Nero.
This thread that I started about the third temple was derailed for a bit, and got back on track with the last few posts. Could we please keep this thread on the topic of the Jews desiring the third temple? Another thread could be started for the discussion on the preterist view.
Thanks!
Formerly moonglow
John 19:11-15 (New Living Translation)
11 Then Jesus said, “You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”
12 Then Pilate tried to release him, but the Jewish leaders shouted, “If you release this man, you are no ‘friend of Caesar.’ Anyone who declares himself a king is a rebel against Caesar.”
13 When they said this, Pilate brought Jesus out to them again. Then Pilate sat down on the judgment seat on the platform that is called the Stone Pavement (in Hebrew, Gabbatha). 14 It was now about noon on the day of preparation for the Passover. And Pilate said to the people, “Look, here is your king!”
15 “Away with him,” they yelled. “Away with him! Crucify him!”
“What? Crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
“We have no king but Caesar,” the leading priests shouted back.
God Bless
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
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