Gold And Silver In The End Times.

[HisLeast]

Acts 7:54-60 (New King James Version)

Stephen the Martyr

54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

It appears Stephen was prepared for a slow and agonizing death.

[HisLeast]

Thoughout history what fiat currency has not failed?

Sorry, I only have so much time to make people's cases for them. Yours was the claim that all fiat currencies have failed. Quite obviously not true as every fiat currency in the world currently in use has not failed. So you tell me which ones have.

[Amos_with_goats]

It appears Stephen was prepared for a slow and agonizing death.

This is my point exactly. I am thankful that we need not fear death.

[thedee]

Sorry, I only have so much time to make people's cases for them. Yours was the claim that all fiat currencies have failed. Quite obviously not true as every fiat currency in the world currently in use has not failed. So you tell me which ones have.

Everyone has failed. All, the currencies I know of today have only been around so long.... eventually they become worth the paper they are printed on. The same with the dollar. It is back by nothing but debt. Back in 1971 or so it was back by gold but that came to and end so that they could print more.

Do you know of a fiat currency that is here today that was here 500 years ago?

[tango]

I wasn't focussing on accurate presentation of value so much as I was presenting the limited utility for gold as a currency. You'll only be able to get a few ounces at today's prices, and you won't be able to split those ounces very many ways when it comes to trade.

If you buy it in lumps of 1oz you may have problems. But it's easy to buy in smaller lumps. US gold eagles come in handy 1oz, 1/2oz, 1/4oz and 1/10oz sizes. Some coins come in 1/20oz sizes. The premiums you pay get higher as manufacturing costs become larger relative to the metal's value but you can get them.

[tango]

Silver has the exact same problem at a lower threshold.

You could argue the same of just about anything. If I wanted to trade something for a hammer and I had a 1oz silver coin, a 1/2oz silver coin and a 1oz gold coin I know which I'd rather be handing over.

They are fiats of mass choice. In a completely collapsed economy they will be useless because they can not be eaten or gathered in sufficient quantity to build a shelter out of.

The point is they are not fiat currency. They are accepted as currency by the parties to the transaction based on a free choice and a free perception of value, as opposed to having a value assigned to them by government diktat.

[HisLeast]

If you buy it in lumps of 1oz you may have problems. But it's easy to buy in smaller lumps. US gold eagles come in handy 1oz, 1/2oz, 1/4oz and 1/10oz sizes. Some coins come in 1/20oz sizes. The premiums you pay get higher as manufacturing costs become larger relative to the metal's value but you can get them.

Even so, lets say I use my spare $14000 now to buy 10 ounces of gold, I can get approximately 200 tradeable items if I purchase the 1/20oz coins. Assuming someone might enjoy a shiny disc instead of a warm meal, potable water, a watchman at night, or an evening out of the snow I still only have approximately 200 trades, which won't last long. I likely won't be accepting gold as I'll be looking to my next meal, nap time, or shelter in payment for whatever I can offer (which is nothing).

[HisLeast]

You could argue the same of just about anything. If I wanted to trade something for a hammer and I had a 1oz silver coin, a 1/2oz silver coin and a 1oz gold coin I know which I'd rather be handing over.

Assuming someone will want a shiny disc vs a useful good or service. If a person with such affinity for shiny discs does exist, they'd likely ask for the highest valued one.

The point is they are not fiat currency. They are accepted as currency by the parties to the transaction based on a free choice and a free perception of value, as opposed to having a value assigned to them by government diktat.

The value is assigned to them via the people themselves. The fact that the government isn't doing it as a proxy for the people doesn't make much of a difference. The gold on its own has no objective value since about the only thing its good for is not rusting.

[tango]

Even so, lets say I use my spare $14000 now to buy 10 ounces of gold, I can get approximately 200 tradeable items if I purchase the 1/20oz coins. Assuming someone might enjoy a shiny disc instead of a warm meal, potable water, a watchman at night, or an evening out of the snow I still only have approximately 200 trades, which won't last long. I likely won't be accepting gold as I'll be looking to my next meal, nap time, or shelter in payment for whatever I can offer (which is nothing).

It's still 200 trades more than you'd get if you had 14,000 bits of paper.

The point of the shiny disc is that it's a store of value. If you have a specific skill or goods to offer in exchange for some food or water you've got a trade on the spot. If not, you've got something that the other guy might be willing to accept on the basis he could then trade it with someone else. That, after all, is why we use any form of money rather than a pure bartering system.

[HisLeast]

The point of the shiny disc is that it's a store of value.

After a total collapse, who says it stores value?

If you have a specific skill or goods to offer in exchange for some food or water you've got a trade on the spot. If not, you've got something that the other guy might be willing to accept on the basis he could then trade it with someone else. That, after all, is why we use any form of money rather than a pure bartering system.

And what I'm saying is that in the kind of collapse I see people talking about, there'd be no means of tradeable value. You've either got something someone wants on the spot, or you got a palm full of wishes worth nothing.

[tango]

After a total collapse, who says it stores value?

And what I'm saying is that in the kind of collapse I see people talking about, there'd be no means of tradeable value. You've either got something someone wants on the spot, or you got a palm full of wishes worth nothing.

The perceived value comes from the scarcity. Whether any given individual would accept it as a trade item simply because it is rare (and durable) would obviously remain to be seen. But I'd bet the person with gold would find it easier to trade than the person with a fistful of bits of discredited paper.

[RabbiKnife]

Silver has the exact same problem at a lower threshold.


Not really.


They are fiats of mass choice. In a completely collapsed economy they will be useless because they can not be eaten or gathered in sufficient quantity to build a shelter out of.

As soon as you show gold and a market for wealth transfer in your doomsday scenario, ie., that the gold actually has barter value, I will show up with my lead and gunpowder and remove the gold from your possession.

[svfox]

We know God will give people over to their wickedness in these end times. So they will be very greedy and ripoff everyone and thing they can. They will do whatever it takes to make more money.
Look at these ceo's that were building yachts to see who could build the biggest one. Now they are all bankrupt...
Business is so lost and corrupt and they control congress with their bribe money.

[T W Taylor]

Hey,-- Your money will be worth nothing. There will be nothing to buy.

Ezekiel 7:19 'They will throw their silver into the streets, And their gold will be like refuse; Their silver and their gold will not be able to deliver them In the day of the wrath of the Lord; They will not satisfy their souls, Nor fill their stomachs, Because it became their stumbling block of iniquity.

A quart of wheat would be about a loaf of bread, A denarius is a day’s pay. (A day’s work for something to eat)

Rev 6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.

Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."

Sounds like there will be a shortage of oil, Do you think it will be cooking oil or crude, or both.

[tango]

"not harming the oil or wine" suggests to me that society will split into two very distinct groups - the underclass who will work to live in an almost literal hand-to-mouth existence while the overclass will have every indulgence they could imagine. I'd think of oil as being something more like extra virgin olive oil than regular sunflower oil or crude oil.