What do you think about Free Will?

**Radagast** · May 1st 2010, 12:13 AM

There has been some heated discussion lately about "free will," and I wanted to work out what people understood by the phrase. Here are some things it might mean:

1. Human choices are GENUINELY WILLED. For example, when I go out with friends for icecream, I spend several minutes imagining the different flavors before I choose pistachio. I choose pistachio because that's what I want: I prefer it to strawberry, vanilla, etc.

2. Human choices carry PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I have sensitive teeth, so the icecream will make my teeth hurt. That's my fault because I was the one that wanted the ice cream.

3. Human choices CAUSE a selection from among alternative future universes, which are REAL possibilities up until the moment of our choice -- to quote the Terminator films: "The future is not written. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves." I believe God knew from eternity that I would choose pistachio last evening, so I believe there never was an alternative universe where I chose vanilla -- it was indeed written that I would choose pistachio

4. Human choices are UNPREDICTABLE. Nobody knows what we will choose until we choose it. Actually, I always wind up choosing pistachio on weekdays. All my friends know that, and there was hardly any left, so my friends had left the last of the pistachio for me.

Please tick all the options that apply.

***RogerW*** · May 1st 2010, 02:16 AM

Hi Radagast,

This should evoke some interesting replies.

Doesn't free imply without a cause? To be totally free would it be necessary to be exempt from any source of bondage? If we answer yes...can free will of man actually exist?

Many Blessings,
RW

**Radagast** · May 1st 2010, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by RogerW

Doesn't free imply without a cause? To be totally free would it be necessary to be exempt from any source of bondage? If we answer yes...can free will of man actually exist?

Well, most people describe human beings as having "free will," but there's many different definitions of what that might mean. Hence this poll: what do people here think "free will" means?

***Gulah Papyrus*** · May 1st 2010, 03:40 AM

I choose not to post in this thread.

***crossnote*** · May 1st 2010, 03:41 AM

There is a difference of free will depending on what sphere of life we are speaking of and I don't see the poll reflecting any of that. For example many believe that man has a free will when it comes to which coat to put on before going out for the day. But it is a totally different ball game when asked if a person can come to Christ solely on the basis of free will.

**Radagast** · May 1st 2010, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by crossnote

There is a difference of free will depending on what sphere of life we are speaking of and I don't see the poll reflecting any of that. For example many believe that man has a free will when it comes to which coat to put on before going out for the day. But it is a totally different ball game when asked if a person can come to Christ solely on the basis of free will.

Good point. I'd be interested in your answers both ways.

***-SEEKING-*** · May 1st 2010, 01:41 PM

Personally I went with option 1. You're explanations brought back memories of Neo talking to the Oracle in The Matrix.

**Radagast** · May 1st 2010, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by -SEEKING-

Personally I went with option 1. You're explanations brought back memories of Neo talking to the Oracle in The Matrix.

I assume I'm the Oracle and you're Neo?

**notuptome** · May 1st 2010, 02:32 PM

Is God in His soverignity not at liberty to extend free will to Hs creation? Man is created in His image and likeness. We have a will because God has a will. We are lesser than the Creator so our will is lesser than His.

Does the soverignity of God predetermine every event that will transpire in our lives? Or is the soverignity of God so immense that it can allow the creation the liberty to operate to the fullest extent short of becoming God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

***-SEEKING-*** · May 1st 2010, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Radagast

I assume I'm the Oracle and you're Neo?

Good one.

**Servant89** · May 1st 2010, 02:58 PM

Since the beginning of time, man has been trying to avoid accountability. Since the beginning of time man has been blaming God for everything.

When God asked Adam what happened after he sinned. Adam's answer to God started with: "The woman that you gave me, ..."

Shalom

***RogerW*** · May 1st 2010, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Radagast

Well, most people describe human beings as having "free will," but there's many different definitions of what that might mean. Hence this poll: what do people here think "free will" means?

Well if your asking if humans having free will means they can, while unregenerate freely choose Christ for salvation, then I would ask, "are unregenerate humans under any bondage?" If they are, then how can it be said that they have free will? Can a human have free will and be in bondage at the same time?

Many Blessings,
RW

**HisLeast** · May 1st 2010, 06:06 PM

1. Human choices are GENUINELY WILLED.
Voted YES. If it were otherwise, all the scriptures and lessons designed to compel us to certain choices would be irrelevant.

2. Human choices carry PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Voted YES.

3. Human choices CAUSE a selection from among alternative future universes, which are REAL possibilities up until the moment of our choice -- to quote the Terminator films: "The future is not written. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves."
4. Human choices are UNPREDICTABLE. Nobody knows what we will choose until we choose it.
Voted NO to both of these but I might have misunderstood them. I believe God sees the sum of all potentials into infinity. So there are pre-existing potential possibilities that narrow to one "thread" at the time of choice, with infinite branches still in the future.

***theBelovedDisciple*** · May 1st 2010, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by RogerW

Well if your asking if humans having free will means they can, while unregenerate freely choose Christ for salvation, then I would ask, "are unregenerate humans under any bondage?" If they are, then how can it be said that they have free will? Can a human have free will and be in bondage at the same time?

Many Blessings,
RW

When Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day.. those were claiming to 'know' the way'.. Moses Disciples, sons of Abraham... these who were wise in their own eyes ... heart blinded to the Truth, and ears shut... these who appear 'righteous' outwardly... in the Synagogues daily.. devout religious people... these whos when Jesus spoke... He constantly reminded them of their hyporcrisy....... My Words on your lips.. but your hearts are far from Me...

Jesus said.. their spiritual father was the devil.. they were claiming to walk in the light.. but were walking in 'darkness'.. and How Great was that Darkness... their 'free will' persay... was non existent.. but they were 'doing' the will of their 'jailor'.. satan... they were under the will of the prince of the power of the air.. the spirit of disobedience.. that now works in the children of disobedience.. these children.. who appear outwardly to appear Righteous and holy.. yet the inside is not 'clean'..

one has no free will persay... to come to Christ on their own, understand the things of God.......... when under the bondage of their jailor.. the jailor of spiritual darkness.. the prince of the power of the air... the only 'free will' would be the 'will that he (satan) imposes upon them.. as they are dead in trepsasses and sins.. blind to the Truth.. destined for Eternal Damnation. UNLESS.. God Soveriegnly Begins a Good work in their Life.. by Drawing them to Him.. revealing Himself to them.. and Saving them... He the Author and Finisher..

and this why Jesus said... by their Fruit ye shall know them.. you will 'know' the difference between the tares and Genuine Seed... if you are In Him.. and are Truely His...

according to the Word of God... all who are unsaved are children of disobedience.. walking in darkness.. according to the course of this world.. under the influence of the prince of the power of the air.. he , who has blinded their minds...

its only the Soveriegn Act of God.. as He moves on the lost soul.. this done thru His Grace and Mercy.. according to His Will and Foreknowledge... that a soul can Geuninely Receive His Grace and come to the Saving Faith and 'knowlege' of the Risen LORD....

Paul found this out.. on the Road to Damascus... he was NOT approached by this Group or that group.. asking him if he would like to make a 'decision' for Christ... NOPE..

many claim they can just come to 'christ' on their own.. our of their own power and ability...

these who claim this.. and profess this.. these would those planted by the 'other sower'.. he who wants to be like the most High... as he sows his weed seeds amongst the True Seed. the Children of the Kingdom..

when in spiritual bondage.... one has no 'free will'.. other than the 'will' of their jailor.. satan...

and Jesus said you would recognize him and his traits... and those he controls and manipulates.. this beginning with the perversion of the Word of God.. and the twisting of it...

one does not have to go very far to see that in full bloom..

***BadDog*** · May 3rd 2010, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Radagast

There has been some heated discussion lately about "free will," and I wanted to work out what people understood by the phrase. Here are some things it might mean:

1. Human choices are GENUINELY WILLED. For example, when I go out with friends for icecream, I spend several minutes imagining the different flavors before I choose pistachio. I choose pistachio because that's what I want: I prefer it to strawberry, vanilla, etc.

2. Human choices carry PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I have sensitive teeth, so the icecream will make my teeth hurt. That's my fault because I was the one that wanted the ice cream.

3. Human choices CAUSE a selection from among alternative future universes, which are REAL possibilities up until the moment of our choice -- to quote the Terminator films: "The future is not written. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves." I believe God knew from eternity that I would choose pistachio last evening, so I believe there never was an alternative universe where I chose vanilla -- it was indeed written that I would choose pistachio

4. Human choices are UNPREDICTABLE. Nobody knows what we will choose until we choose it. Actually, I always wind up choosing pistachio on weekdays. All my friends know that, and there was hardly any left, so my friends had left the last of the pistachio for me.

Please tick all the options that apply.

Radagast,

I don't have much time, because we're nearing the end of the semester, so I won't be able to share many details. But have you heard of "middle knowledge" (Molinism)? William Lane Craig is the #1 supporter of this view today. It is essentially a view of the foreknowledge-omniscience of God which allows for "genuinely willed" free will as you referred to it above and genuine election. Anyway, I marked all 4.

I believe that from our perspective, our choices do "CAUSE a selection from among alternative future universes" while from God's perspective He remains fully sovereign, though He has chosen to allow us to freely choose (genuinely-libertine freedom). He can still bring about His will, because of this heightened view of His omniscience-His knowledge of not just the past-present-future, but of all the possibilities. He actuates the world He wills. Of course, He cannot bring about a perfect world, in which no sinful acts exist, and that is self-evident since that is not the world in which we live. But He desires to have a genuine relationship with us, and such relationships cannot occur without our being able to genuinely choose Him.

CYL,

BD