The Tithe

[ikester7579]

So we give no offerings either?

[ThyWordIsTruth]

So we give no offerings either?

What does the Bible say?

[ikester7579]

Do we omit the OT just because we don't want to do something?

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Do we omit the OT just because we don't want to do something?

Do you offer animal sacrifices for atonement for your sins?

[ikester7579]

Do you offer animal sacrifices for atonement for your sins?

You seem to have a problem with tithes, but don't take that out on me. I prefer to keep it civil.

[ThyWordIsTruth]

You seem to have a problem with tithes, but don't take that out on me. I prefer to keep it civil.

I am keeping it civil. I'm trying to show you what's wrong with your way of bible interpretation.

You said:
Do we omit the OT just because we don't want to do something?

To which I asked you:
Do you offer animal sacrifices for atonement for your sins?

Because this is what's commanded in the OT also. If you don't do it anymore, why?

[ikester7579]

I am keeping it civil. I'm trying to show you what's wrong with your way of bible interpretation.

You said:
Do we omit the OT just because we don't want to do something?

To which I asked you:
Do you offer animal sacrifices for atonement for your sins?

Because this is what's commanded in the OT also. If you don't do it anymore, why?

So from your logic we do omit the OT. No I don't sacrifice animals. Do the commands apply?

[ThyWordIsTruth]

So from your logic we do omit the OT. No I don't sacrifice animals. Do the commands apply?

Define omit. And explain why you don't sacrifice animals anymore, and then I can explain why we don't practice the Mosaic Law anymore as believers under the New Covenant.

[chisel]

Many churches today are guilty of a massive bait-and-switch when it comes to preaching on tithes, and the sad part is that many times, members of congregations are unaware of what the Bible says on tithing and they unaware that they're being 'tricked'.

Pastors often use verses that refer to Biblical tithing as proof for Modern tithing. As long as people are unaware that these are two different meanings, people can be convinced that it is God's will that they should tithe (In the modern sense).

What's the difference?

Modern tithing is:
1. Giving a minimum of 10%
2. Of your monetary income
3. To the church
4. With no exception

Biblical tithing is:
1. Giving the tenth part (i.e. max 10%)
2. Of the increase of the land (specifically not money)
3. And eating it yourself (2/3 years) at the place that God appointed(the Temple and none other), during the festival of booths.
4. Only those getting an increase from the land had to tithe, not carpenters, cobblers, bakers, potters etc). The poor and levites were also exempt and were infact secondary recipients (1/3 years) for they had no land.

There is absolute no command given to gentiles under the new covenant that they should pay tithes to the church. Nowhere in the Bible is modern tithing defined or mandated, and nowhere in the Bible are pastors authorised to accept, let alone demand or command modern tithing.

Biblical tithing is clearly defined in Deut 14 and the commands are very specific.


Deuteronomy 14:22-35 (King James Version) (Please don't skip over the text)

22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
27And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.


Verses often used as proof texts for Modern tithing (such as Malachi 3:10) are about Biblical tithing, which as I said is a bait-and-switch.


Malachi 3: 10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

does not say

"Bring ye all the tithes into the church, that there may be money in the congregation, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out wealth and success, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

Yet this is how this verse is most interpreted in the church today.

[RabbiKnife]

Tithing was a part of the law. That covenant has been declared null and void and replaced by a new and better covenant.

The new covenant does not have any requirement for a tithe. It requires 100% to be owned by God and me to act as a responsible steward.

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Found a great (scholarly) resource on tithing:

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

This is part of the guy's Ph.D thesis I believe. ikester I encourage you to go read it and check up the Scripture references provided and see if you still think tithing is biblical for the New Covenant believer.

[ikester7579]

PHDs don't dictate the truth in God's word. This is because even people with PHDs can lie. If you deem me as a newbie, I am supposed to have around 10,000 posts here. The number got reverted to a much lower one some how.

I belong to a huge church (the building). The congregation is still small but growing. The pastor invested everything he had because he was lead to do this and now is believing God will fill that church. Now because my brother is married to one of the daughters, and works the bus ministry. I get some inside information about expenses. The AC for the church is only turned on one day a week (sunday). While all the other days we hold church in the smaller building next door. So what that means is that the AC is only on, plus lights and cameras, 4 times a month average. The electric bill is over 3,000 dollars.

Now how is a church supposed to pay those bills if no one tithes? Do you actually think running a church is free? Would you prefer there were no churches? In this county it is against the law to hold church in your house.

I guess we now have an anti-tithe movement? Kinda like the movement against KJV only people. Beware of the tricksters.

[chisel]

PHDs don't dictate the truth in God's word. This is because even people with PHDs can lie. If you deem me as a newbie, I am supposed to have around 10,000 posts here. The number got reverted to a much lower one some how.

I belong to a huge church (the building). The congregation is still small but growing. The pastor invested everything he had because he was lead to do this and now is believing God will fill that church. Now because my brother is married to one of the daughters, and works the bus ministry. I get some inside information about expenses. The AC for the church is only turned on one day a week (sunday). While all the other days we hold church in the smaller building next door. So what that means is that the AC is only on, plus lights and cameras, 4 times a month average. The electric bill is over 3,000 dollars.

Now how is a church supposed to pay those bills if no one tithes? Do you actually think running a church is free? Would you prefer there were no churches? In this county it is against the law to hold church in your house.

I guess we now have an anti-tithe movement? Kinda like the movement against KJV only people. Beware of the tricksters.

Dear ikester7579,

Why is it that whenever pro-tithers are confronted with scripture, they go for the sympathy plea and generally it's exactly what you're saying now. "Who is going to pay for the running of the congregation without tithes?" Which isn't a scriptural response (despite your claim "PHDs don't dictate the truth in God's word."), to the scriptural responses you were given.

Firstly, there are plenty of churches that are aware of what the bible says about tithing, and as such they collect donations (not tithes) from the congregation and these churches flourish. In fact there is no record of the early Christian church ever tithing.
Secondly, the ends do not justify the means. Getting people to obey the commandments of men, as if they're commandments from God is wrong, and if a church is powered and sustained by such teaching, then perhaps it shouldn't exist. Jesus commanded the following of those who were to be his disciples:
Thirdly, who says you need money to start a church? If church growth seminars, multimedia and tithes are the only way to start a church, then how did Paul ever do it without such things?
Fourthly, is there a shortage of churches in America? Are the churches in America poorer than say, Peru, Croatia and China? Yet, interestingly enough, it's the very churches in the poorer countries that bear the greatest fruit, and the big American churches with all their expenses achieve far less.

Dear friend, you have been given scripture, and a good reference by ThyWordIsTruth, yet you haven't looked into it at all. Instead you've responded by making irrelevant justify tithing by its ends, and comparing us to an anti-KJV movement for simply prefering scripture as the authority in this subject.
Is tithing important to you because of what scripture says or do you believe it important because of what you've been taught in church?

Please think about this: Where in scripture did God authorise gentile pastors of the gentile church to take 10% of people's monthly income as 'tithes'? The best answer you'll get are vague declarations such as, "'Tithing' is a principle all through the bible" etc. but you won't find a single direct scriptural proof for Modern tithing.

[RabbiKnife]

PHDs don't dictate the truth in God's word. This is because even people with PHDs can lie. If you deem me as a newbie, I am supposed to have around 10,000 posts here. The number got reverted to a much lower one some how.

I belong to a huge church (the building). The congregation is still small but growing. The pastor invested everything he had because he was lead to do this and now is believing God will fill that church. Now because my brother is married to one of the daughters, and works the bus ministry. I get some inside information about expenses. The AC for the church is only turned on one day a week (sunday). While all the other days we hold church in the smaller building next door. So what that means is that the AC is only on, plus lights and cameras, 4 times a month average. The electric bill is over 3,000 dollars.

Now how is a church supposed to pay those bills if no one tithes? Do you actually think running a church is free? Would you prefer there were no churches? In this county it is against the law to hold church in your house.

I guess we now have an anti-tithe movement? Kinda like the movement against KJV only people. Beware of the tricksters.

I wish for people to be givers and good stewards, not tithers.

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Allow me to dissect your response ikester.

PHDs don't dictate the truth in God's word. This is because even people with PHDs can lie.

Well if you think he is lying, quote him and the verses he uses for supporting his view and let's discuss. Blanket statements like these accomplish nothing and can be considered slander.

If you deem me as a newbie, I am supposed to have around 10,000 posts here. The number got reverted to a much lower one some how.

I don't judge a person's understanding of Scripture by post count.

I belong to a huge church (the building). The congregation is still small but growing. The pastor invested everything he had because he was lead to do this and now is believing God will fill that church. Now because my brother is married to one of the daughters, and works the bus ministry. I get some inside information about expenses. The AC for the church is only turned on one day a week (sunday). While all the other days we hold church in the smaller building next door. So what that means is that the AC is only on, plus lights and cameras, 4 times a month average. The electric bill is over 3,000 dollars.

ok. if you believe that the pastor was lead (by God I presume) to do something, then God will provide.

Now how is a church supposed to pay those bills if no one tithes? Do you actually think running a church is free? Would you prefer there were no churches? In this county it is against the law to hold church in your house.

So now you are advocating that we make up man-made rules (not God's) and make people obey them (and tell them God commanded it) although they're totally unscriptural, in order to be expedient? Is that even ethical?

I can understand what you're saying, and I do understand that every ministry has needs. But what about faith in God? Can God provide for his ordained ministries or not?

So how did Christianity boom in the first few hundred years before this false teaching of tithing was ever introduced into the early church, when nobody tithed?

Perhaps then we come back to a most basic quesiton on how churches are run these days. Are huge expensive buildings a necessity, or is it more prudent to just get an affordable property without frills? The early church met in member's homes, and later in the catacombs. If that's not possible today due to legal restrictions, rent a simple hall or room without frills. If church was run the way it was in the NT we wouldn't need $3000 electricity bills.

I guess we now have an anti-tithe movement? Kinda like the movement against KJV only people. Beware of the tricksters.

Beware of the tricksters? Throughout your posts you have not given a single shred of evidence from Scripture to prove that tithing is taught anywhere in the NT. And you call them tricksters? It is those who teach tithing who are teaching a false doctrine.

Honestly, did you even read through the article I posted?