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Thread: Assurance of salvation

  1. #1
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    Assurance of salvation

    Recently I witnessed to a guy who believes one cannot have the assurance of salvation. I don't think he is against perserverance of the saints, he just thinks one cannot know if they are truly saved until their Judgment Day. He has just enough biblical knowledge to make him dangerous and takes a lot of scripture out of context to prove this particular point (like using 1 Corinthians 4 to support his belief). I was limited in time I could talk with him, and though I pointed out several verses (ie: Romans 10), he still felt they were not enough validation.

    If you had only 5 minutes to share with someone how they can have assurance of salvation, what would you share? What scripture would you use? I'm a little stumped to find the validation he is looking for and my mind is racing for those passages that we can hang our hats on.
    "To live is Christ..." - Philippians 1:21

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    Hi there,

    I'm going to post for you what I think is one of the best explanations of the doctrine of assurance. The Scripture references that go along with each point will be posted in full at the bottom of this post for the sake of convenience. Ultimately, the verses you will be most interested in seeing are all of the 1 John passages as well as Romans 8:15-16.

    London Baptist Confession of 1689
    CHAP. XVIII.
    Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.

    1. Although temporary Believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes, and carnal presumptions, of being in the favour of God, and state of salvation, (a) which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truely believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good Conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured (b) that they are in the state of Grace; and may rejoyce in the hope of the glory of God which hope shall never make them (c) ashamed.

    2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural, and probable perswasion, grounded upon (d) a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the Blood and Righteousness of Christ (e) revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward (f) evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the (g) Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our Spirits that we are the children of God; and as a fruit thereof keeping the heart both (h) humble and holy.

    3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true Believer, may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be (i) partaker of it; yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may without extraordinary revelation in the right use of means (k) attain thereunto: and therefore it is the duty of every one, to give all diligence to make their Calling and Election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and chearfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper (l) fruits of this Assurance; so far is it (m) from inclining men to looseness.

    4. True Believers may have the assurance of their Salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as (n) by negligence in preserving of it, by (o) falling into som special Sin, which woundeth the Conscience, and grieveth the Spirit, by some sudden or (p) vehement temptation, by Gods withdrawing the (q) light of his countenance and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light; yet are they never destitute of the (r) seed of God, and Life (s) of Faith, that Love of Christ, and the brethren, that sincerity of Heart, and Conscience of duty, out of which by the operation of the Spirit, this Assurance may in due time be (t) revived: and by the which in the mean time they are (u) preserved from utter despair.

    Chapter 18

    Scripture Reference(s) a

    Job 8:13-14 13So [are] the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish: 14Whose hope shall be cut off, and whose trust [shall be] a spider's web.
    Matthew 7:22-23 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.




    Scripture Reference(s) b

    1 John 2:3 3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    1 John 3:14,18-19,21,24 14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. ..18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. ..21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. ..24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    1 John 5:13 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



    Scripture Reference(s) c

    Romans 5:2,5 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ..5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.



    Scripture Reference(s) d

    Hebrews 6:11,19 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: ..19Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;



    Scripture Reference(s) e

    Hebrews 6:17-18 17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath: 18That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:



    Scripture Reference(s) f

    2 Peter 1:4-5,10-11 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; ..10
    Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.




    Scripture Reference(s) g

    Romans 8:15-16 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



    Scripture Reference(s) h

    1 John 3:1-3 1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.



    Scripture Reference(s) i

    Isaiah 50:10 10Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.
    Psalm 88:1-18 1O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day [and] night before thee: 2Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry; 3For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. 4
    I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man [that hath] no strength: 5Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. 6Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. 7Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted [me] with all thy waves. Selah. 8Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: [I am] shut up, and I cannot come forth. 9Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. 10Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah. 11Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction? 12Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? 13But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee. 14LORD, why castest thou off my soul? [why] hidest thou thy face from me? 15I [am] afflicted and ready to die from [my] youth up: [while] I suffer thy terrors I am distracted. 16Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off. 17They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together. 18Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, [and] mine acquaintance into darkness.

    Psalm 77:1-12 1I cried unto God with my voice, [even] unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me. 2In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted. 3I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah. 4Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I am so troubled that I cannot speak. 5I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. 6I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search. 7Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more? 8Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth [his] promise fail for evermore? 9Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah. 10And I said, This [is] my infirmity: [but I will remember] the years of the right hand of the most High. 11
    I will remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders of old. 12I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.




    Scripture Reference(s) k

    1 John 4:13 13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
    Hebrews 6:11-12 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.



    Scripture Reference(s) l

    Romans 5:1-2,5 1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ..5
    And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    Romans 14:17 17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    Psalm 119:32 32I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.



    Scripture Reference(s) m

    Romans 6:1-2 1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    Titus 2:11-12,14 11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ..14
    Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.




    Scripture Reference(s) n
    Canticles 5:2-3,6 2I sleep, but my heart waketh: [it is] the voice of my beloved that knocketh, [saying], Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, [and] my locks with the drops of the night. 3I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? ..6I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, [and] was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer.




    Scripture Reference(s) o

    Psalm 51:8,12,14 8Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice. ..12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit. ..14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: [and] my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.



    Scripture Reference(s) p

    Psalm 116:11 11I said in my haste, All men [are] liars.
    Psalm 77:7-8 7Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more? 8Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth [his] promise fail for evermore?
    Psalm 31:22 22For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.



    Scripture Reference(s) q

    Psalm 30:7 7LORD, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, [and] I was troubled.



    Scripture Reference(s) r

    1 John 3:9 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



    Scripture Reference(s) s

    Luke 22:32 32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



    Scripture Reference(s) t

    Psalm 42:5,11 5Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and [why] art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him [for] the help of his countenance. ..11Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, [who is] the health of my countenance, and my God.



    Scripture Reference(s) u

    Lamentations 3:26-31 26[It is] good that [a man] should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. 27[It is] good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. 28He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne [it] upon him. 29He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope. 30He giveth [his] cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach. 31For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
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  3. #3
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    The short version 2 Tim 1:12 and Jude 1:24 Jesus is the keeper of our salvation not us. We can fall Jesus can never fail. My Saviour is perfect and eternal.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainM View Post
    Recently I witnessed to a guy who believes one cannot have the assurance of salvation. I don't think he is against perserverance of the saints, he just thinks one cannot know if they are truly saved until their Judgment Day. He has just enough biblical knowledge to make him dangerous and takes a lot of scripture out of context to prove this particular point (like using 1 Corinthians 4 to support his belief). I was limited in time I could talk with him, and though I pointed out several verses (ie: Romans 10), he still felt they were not enough validation.

    If you had only 5 minutes to share with someone how they can have assurance of salvation, what would you share? What scripture would you use? I'm a little stumped to find the validation he is looking for and my mind is racing for those passages that we can hang our hats on.

    Those who are following Christ are 'secure'; those who are not following are not. Those who believe in a security based in something other than an active, perservering faith are mistaken.

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    Assurance is a tough one. As we grow and walk with Christ we will often see additional things we need to work on. Sometimes when we fail to correct something in our lives or we backslide we dont feel that assurance.

    When i read through Matthew 7 i am reminded it wouldnt be a bad idea to work out our salvation with fear and trembling! When people ask about assurance I dont really have a solid answer (so i am looking forward to the responses) but i would instead stress perseverence and living a life that is pleasing to the Lord
    Quote Originally Posted by Job 34:19
    God is not partial to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of His hands.

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    I have observed that the concept of "assurance" is encouraged when someone is asking specifically about assurance, but strictly discouraged at every other time. While the others have covered the requisite verses quite nicely (assuming they're correct of course), I would suggest you pay close and careful attention to what you say about salvation (and what that entails) when you both are not talking about assurance.

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    Sorry, perhaps my previous wording wasn't very clear; let me try again.

    The only person who has assurance is the one who is a disciple (an active follower of Jesus Christ). There is no basis for assurance for the one who does not follow Him.

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    One must possess it before one can have full assurance of it.

    Salvation is by Gods grace received by faith. There is no reason to believe that it depends on anything or any one but God. If as its name implies salvation is eternal life then once attained it cannot end.

    For the cause of Christ
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainM View Post
    Recently I witnessed to a guy who believes one cannot have the assurance of salvation. I don't think he is against perserverance of the saints, he just thinks one cannot know if they are truly saved until their Judgment Day. He has just enough biblical knowledge to make him dangerous and takes a lot of scripture out of context to prove this particular point (like using 1 Corinthians 4 to support his belief). I was limited in time I could talk with him, and though I pointed out several verses (ie: Romans 10), he still felt they were not enough validation.

    If you had only 5 minutes to share with someone how they can have assurance of salvation, what would you share? What scripture would you use? I'm a little stumped to find the validation he is looking for and my mind is racing for those passages that we can hang our hats on.
    What verse in 1 Corinthians 4 is he using? The whole chapter? And what verse did you use in Romans 10?

    Anyway here are some verses:

    John 10:27-30 (New King James Version)

    27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”


    Ephesians 2:8 (New King James Version)

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


    He is doubting God's capabilities? Its God that saves us...and hangs onto us.

    1 John 5:11-13 (New King James Version)

    11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.


    Romans 8:38-39 (New King James Version)

    38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


    I know alot of Christians struggle with this..wondering if they are really saved and I can understand why. We have verses like this:

    Matthew 7
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


    I have checked several bible commentaries on that one...these people were 'using' our Lords Name to do these things, then taking the credit. To get attention, maybe even money for doing it. They weren't in God's will doing this, which is why Jesus says they practice lawlessness.

    Jesus warns of us false Christians, false prophets and false teachers...those that do these things for their own benefit know who they are.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post

    Matthew 7
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


    I have checked several bible commentaries on that one...these people were 'using' our Lords Name to do these things, then taking the credit. To get attention, maybe even money for doing it. They weren't in God's will doing this, which is why Jesus says they practice lawlessness.

    Jesus warns of us false Christians, false prophets and false teachers...those that do these things for their own benefit know who they are.

    God bless
    You know MG that is one of the passages that i read the most. One of those i have committed to memory. Because i think its very important.

    Now what i notice is that these people do three things
    -prophesied
    -did wonders
    -cast out demons

    Its easy to look at this passage and say "My these people did great things in the name of the Lord!" but a lot of times we miss what they didn't do. What didn't these people do?
    -I don't see them sharing Christ
    -I don't see them praying
    -I don't see fruits of the Spirit

    What i do see is a "look at what i did" mentality. Simply using the name Jesus doesn't imply that one is saved! Look at the multitude of people that use it in a vain manner!

    I think your commentaries might be on to something. Does this remind you of anyone? It reminds me of Simon the Magician. He wanted to buy the gift to further magnify himself in front of the people. Remember that the people called him "the great power of God" because he was doing these wonders. Just like the end of verse 22 in Matthew 7. But as we read on we see that He didn't have a grasp on what he was really asking for. I think he saw power and the attention and admiration that it brought and he was simply following suit (going through the motions) to attain this.

    It also reminds me of the Jewish Exorcists in Acts 19:13. They knew and understood that the name itself had power and they tried to harness that power by utilizing the name.

    Just some thoughts i had this evening
    Quote Originally Posted by Job 34:19
    God is not partial to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of His hands.

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    Three different apostles give us the same answer, which amounts to a testing of our faith: Peter, Paul, and James. I'm not sitting at my own computer right now so I can't quote the passages verbatim, but the relevant passages begin with Romans 5:1, James 1:3 and 1Peter 1:7. The testing of our faith is more precious than gold because the passing of the test gives us the assurance that our faith is genuine, and everlasting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quickened View Post
    You know MG that is one of the passages that i read the most. One of those i have committed to memory. Because i think its very important.

    Now what i notice is that these people do three things
    -prophesied
    -did wonders
    -cast out demons

    Its easy to look at this passage and say "My these people did great things in the name of the Lord!" but a lot of times we miss what they didn't do. What didn't these people do?
    -I don't see them sharing Christ
    -I don't see them praying
    -I don't see fruits of the Spirit

    What i do see is a "look at what i did" mentality. Simply using the name Jesus doesn't imply that one is saved! Look at the multitude of people that use it in a vain manner!

    I think your commentaries might be on to something. Does this remind you of anyone? It reminds me of Simon the Magician. He wanted to buy the gift to further magnify himself in front of the people. Remember that the people called him "the great power of God" because he was doing these wonders. Just like the end of verse 22 in Matthew 7. But as we read on we see that He didn't have a grasp on what he was really asking for. I think he saw power and the attention and admiration that it brought and he was simply following suit (going through the motions) to attain this.

    It also reminds me of the Jewish Exorcists in Acts 19:13. They knew and understood that the name itself had power and they tried to harness that power by utilizing the name.

    Just some thoughts i had this evening
    Excellent. I did a blog on this subject and brought up Simon too and how he wanted to 'buy' the gifts of God and the Jewish Exorcist are another great example. There IS power in Jesus' Name...there really is. But sadly some do 'use' and 'abuse' it for their own gain...happened then and still happening today.

    When the focus is on 'those' doing this and not on Christ, that is a clear warning sign...

    I would not want to be standing even remotely close to these people on judgment day..

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Excellent. I did a blog on this subject and brought up Simon too and how he wanted to 'buy' the gifts of God and the Jewish Exorcist are another great example. There IS power in Jesus' Name...there really is. But sadly some do 'use' and 'abuse' it for their own gain...happened then and still happening today.

    I would not want to be standing even remotely close to these people on judgment day..

    God bless
    Based on the scripture about Simon, it was clear the Holy Spirit would not baptize him in power as Simon was seeing all around him. So if he went out and continued to do signs and miracles but now in Jesus' name... who/what is really giving him his power, if it's not the Holy Spirit? By what power would he heal, cast out demons, speak in tongues etc... if it wasn't the Holy Spirit... despite doing it in the name of Jesus? Yeah... a "what if" question.

    Anyway...

    The abuse we see in the church today is the same as it was when Paul was sent to Corinth... still the Holy Spirit but miss use do to lack of understanding and emotion. All these churches and/or congregations need to do is read 1 Cor 12-14 and be obedient to the Word of God.

    However, those people who go out into the world and specifically do "signs and wonders" in Jesus Christ's name but it's clear to many Christian's it's nothing but personal gain "in" the name of Jesus... why would God allow His Spirit to empower such deeds? We are warned of "false" signs and miracles and God isn't doing anything "false"... so then, what/who is empowering these imitation signs and miracles? How can anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit empowering them, cast out a demon, heal, speak in tongues? They can't... not without the Holy Spirit in power!

    If a man/women of God is empowered and the Holy Spirit informs them to do a sign/miracle it is only to glorify God, God is glorifying Himself... through such vessels and only when God wants to use them, does His Holy Spirit empower them. Yet we are still warned about false signs and wonders. Seeming done at will, at the drop of a hat when "they" want, on their call and usually it's before 1000's of ticket paying people who are also free in offerings as well... it's clear though, these are not of God even though many Christians believe they are because they only view this with their natural eyes open and not their spiritual eyes by applying scripture and/or discernment.

    Question stands... who/what is enabling/empowering such false miracles when we KNOW it's not God and God even warns us of this?
    Slug1--out

    ~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~

    ~
    "So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~

    ~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
    so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heaven… HE KNOWS YOU~


    ~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~

    ~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~

    ~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~


  14. #14
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    However, those people who go out into the world and specifically do "signs and wonders" in Jesus Christ's name but it's clear to many Christian's it's nothing but personal gain "in" the name of Jesus... why would God allow His Spirit to empower such deeds? We are warned of "false" signs and miracles and God isn't doing anything "false"... so then, what/who is empowering these imitation signs and miracles? How can anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit empowering them, cast out a demon, heal, speak in tongues? They can't... not without the Holy Spirit in power!
    To say "they can't without the use of the Spirit" isn't exactly correct. How hard is it to fake any of these things in order to deceive people?

    Tongues especially. I know numerous examples of otherwise church going born again Christians that were in a church that emphasized the gifts. They were thought not to be saved if they didn't exhibit this particular gift. So they would fake it. After all it wasn't a coherent language. It was a special "holy language". All they would have to do is mimic those around them and people believed they too were imparted with this special gift of the spirit.

    Now I'm not sure about "casting out demons" because its not something that we see commonly in the church but people have also deceived others by faking healings at large "revival" style meetings. This kind of stuff has been documented.

    When i read the above quote I interpreted it as "these things cannot happen without the Spirit" which made me think "Surely there are many charlatans that seek to emulate this for personal gain" which is what i was thinking of in terms of Simon.

    All we really know is that Simon "practiced sorcery" previously in that city and astounded people while claiming to be someone great. To me that screams of the very people spoken of in the last part of Matthew 7 that we were talking about.

    who/what is really giving him his power, if it's not the Holy Spirit?
    This is impossible to say not knowing exactly what he was doing. We in our society have people that "practice sorcery" or dabble in "magic" but more often then not its nothing real. Mere illusion. People called Simon "The great power of God" because they were previously deceived. What if a guy like copperfield went back in time and preformed some of those parlor tricks? Those same people would have been "astounded" and deceived.

    Question stands... who/what is enabling/empowering such false miracles when we KNOW it's not God and God even warns us of this?
    Strictly speaking of today I would say that there is no power in terms of false miracles. I stand by the idea that its usually a man trying to emulate the real thing.

    This is not to say that I dont believe God heals. I surely believe He does. I dont believe that he utilizes self absorbed "prophets" to do so. If you want I can elaborate on this further for clarity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Job 34:19
    God is not partial to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of His hands.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainM View Post
    Recently I witnessed to a guy who believes one cannot have the assurance of salvation. I don't think he is against perserverance of the saints, he just thinks one cannot know if they are truly saved until their Judgment Day. He has just enough biblical knowledge to make him dangerous and takes a lot of scripture out of context to prove this particular point (like using 1 Corinthians 4 to support his belief). I was limited in time I could talk with him, and though I pointed out several verses (ie: Romans 10), he still felt they were not enough validation.

    If you had only 5 minutes to share with someone how they can have assurance of salvation, what would you share? What scripture would you use? I'm a little stumped to find the validation he is looking for and my mind is racing for those passages that we can hang our hats on.
    Well, I gave it 5 minutes and it got ignored and diverted away from the subject, and since this subject is of vital importance I will repeat myself. Please take hope and comfort from the Apostle's word

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1Peter 1:3-7

    Our assurance rests in God himself, who has caused us to be born again to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable. Our hope rests in God himself who protects us by his power. And the trials of our faith are precious because the outcome will be praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    What is the division of labor in this case; what do we do and what does God do? I will go through trials and tests of my faith, which will force me to face difficult challenges to what I believe and my loyalty to the savior. God, on the other hand, was the one who gave me new birth and protects me with his great power. These trials and tests of faith are precious since, due to Gods blessing, will result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:3-10

    Here Paul argues from the greater to the lesser. Since the first thing is much harder and the second thing much easier, then if the first thing was accomplished how much more certain it is that the second thing will be accomplished? In other words, having died for his enemies, which is a greater and harder thing, how much more certain is it that he will subsequently save us from God's wrath?

    Paul draws a straight line from tribulations, to perseverance, to certification, to hope, and he says our hope will not disappoint us because God himself will make sure it doesn't. Just like Peter, Paul places our assurance in the hands of God, who protects us with his great power.

    Again, James preaches the same message of assurance through trial.

    Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. But the brother of humble circumstances is to glory in his high position; and the rich man is to glory in his humiliation, because like flowering grass he will pass away. For the sun rises with a scorching wind and withers the grass; and its flower falls off and the beauty of its appearance is destroyed; so too the rich man in the midst of his pursuits will fade away. Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tested, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. James 1:2-16

    Just like Paul and Peter, James considers trials of faith to be precious and a cause for joy and for the same reasons. Just like Paul, James also draws a straight line from the test, to endurance, to certification, to eternal life.

    Take comfort in the words of the apostles.

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