Genesis 17:7. "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you." 18. "Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
Hebrews 8:10. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel:After those days, "says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,"Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. 13. In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
Last edited by SirToady; Jul 1st 2010 at 01:37 PM. Reason: Corrected
Christ is God. You can't reject God (Jesus) and still claim to believe in the true God.Originally Posted by SirToady
Yes. The entire book refers to the Levitical system in the present tense: priesthood, temple, sacrifices. The only time he uses the past tense to describe it is when he describes its origins, or specific past events from the Old Testament. Not once does the book refer to (explicitly or implicitly) a recent destruction of the Second Temple. As far as the author is concerned, it's still standing.Originally Posted by BroRog
Chapter 10.1-3,11 are the most explicit, however, that the Second Temple is still in operation by the priests; they're still carrying out their daily and yearly sacrifices.
There is no "prophetic command to construct" another earthly physical "brick-and-mortar" temple in the verses of post #84 at all . . .
As mentioned before in this thread, there is no case of earthly, physical temple/tabernacle construction where there has not been spiritual, prophetic POWER supplied from YHWH for the construction. Not one.
Therefore, this can be identified as an historical pattern of YHWH.
Indeed, whenever YHWH accomplishes any initiative, certain patterns of activity can be found always in Holy Scripture for our learning. This is especially the case where earthly, physical temple/tabernacles are concerned.
And, of course, Malachi 3:6a is true:
6“For I, the LORD, do not change . . .
Grace and peace,
I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Are you aware that the passages that you refer to in your post from Ezekiel were proclaimed specifically for the captive exiles of Judah only? And these people were in captivity in Babylon for 70 contiguous years.
Indeed, this has happened already.
And why did Judah go into captivity?
Well, let's see--here is some context to Ezekiel 20:31:
1Now in the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth of the month, certain of the elders of Israel came to inquire of the LORD, and sat before me.
2And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
3“Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Do you come to inquire of Me? As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “I will not be inquired of by you.”’
4“Will you judge them, will you judge them, son of man? Make them know the abominations of their fathers;
5and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
6on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
7“I said to them, ‘Cast away, each of you, the detestable things of his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.’
8“But they rebelled against Me and were not willing to listen to Me; they did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt.
Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
9“But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made Myself known to them by bringing them out of the land of Egypt.
10“So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11“I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.
12“Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
13“But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My sabbaths they greatly profaned. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them in the wilderness, to annihilate them.
14“But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, before whose sight I had brought them out.
15“Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands,
16because they rejected My ordinances, and as for My statutes, they did not walk in them; they even profaned My sabbaths, for their heart continually went after their idols.
17“Yet My eye spared them rather than destroying them, and I did not cause their annihilation in the wilderness.
18“I said to their children in the wilderness, ‘Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers or keep their ordinances or defile yourselves with their idols.
19‘I am the LORD your God; walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and observe them.
20‘Sanctify My sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.’
21“But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; they profaned My sabbaths. So I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the wilderness.
22“But I withdrew My hand and acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out.
23“Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands,
24because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers.
25“I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;
26and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD.”’
27“Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed Me by acting treacherously against Me.
28“When I had brought them into the land which I swore to give to them, then they saw every high hill and every leafy tree, and they offered there their sacrifices and there they presented the provocation of their offering. There also they made their soothing aroma and there they poured out their drink offerings.
29“Then I said to them, ‘What is the high place to which you go?’ So its name is called Bamah to this day.”’
30“Therefore, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and play the harlot after their detestable things?
31“When you offer your gifts, when you cause your sons to pass through the fire, you are defiling yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “I will not be inquired of by you. 32“What comes into your mind will not come about, when you say: ‘We will be like the nations, like the tribes of the lands, serving wood and stone.’
Among other things, the sabbaths were not kept by the Hebrews; this moved YHWH to use the Babylonians (Chaldeans) to destroy Solomon's Temple and Jerusalem per the covenant:
And therefore, there was NO physical brick-and-mortar temple on the earth while Judah was in captivity. But when the 70 contiguous years of Babylonian captivity was concluded, YHWH had the following to occur:II Chron. 36
15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.
And the temple of YHWH that was built after the captivity was Zerubabbel's Temple.II Chron. 36
22Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia—in order to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah—the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
23“Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, ‘The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all His people, may the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up!’”
Do you see what I mean?
Last edited by billy-brown 2; Jul 2nd 2010 at 03:00 PM. Reason: format
Grace and peace,
I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Why would God wish that?They will serve God in his temple because God wishes it.
You don't seem to have the eternal in view at all. Your entire focus seems to be on earthly and temporal things.First of all, the author of Hebrews doesn't refer to David and the Levites as shadows. Secondly, the author of Hebrews wouldn't contradict Jeremiah. And finally, you are confusing the eternal with the temporal.
I absolutely do not ignore any scripture. And what does it even mean to spiritualize scripture? Much of scripture has to do with spiritual things so what could be wrong with having a spiritual understanding of Christ's throne and Him being our High Priest?Perhaps someday you will. Many of us continually cite the relevant scriptures, but you simply ignore them or "spiritualize" them.
The passages I cited speak of what occurs at the end of the age, which is what you were talking about. You said, "let's not make the mistake to assume that this eliminates God's word concerning his plans for the end of this age, which are temporal in nature". I'm disagreeing with that point and saying that instead His plans for the end of this age are eternal in nature.The passages you cited speak about the judgment day. The passages I have in mind speak about the last days before the end of the age.
Peter isn't attempting to give an apology for why Jesus isn't physically sitting on a throne down at the temple. Rather he is defending the disciples and their apparent "drunkenness" and why this is actually the work of the Holy Spirit and not the affects of alcohol. During his sermon he reminds the people that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit had to precede the great and glorious day of the Lord. 2:20. and that those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. To put it another way, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was not an indication that the glorious day of the Lord had come, but rather that the outpouring needed to take place BEFORE that glorious day would come. Peter isn't saying that the glorious day of the Lord had come and that this is why the Holy Spirit was poured out; he is saying that the prophets had anticipated the outpouring would take place BEFORE that glorious day.
The fact is, to sit on David's throne is to lead the nation of Israel from Jerusalem just as David did and just as all the other kings of Israel did.
The reason I say this will take place in this age as opposed to the next age is God's revelation that he will use the physical nation of Israel to restore his holy name. And this restoration of Israel, which God will use, takes place in this age in which such a thing is comprehensible in terms of Israel's history. In the Joel passage, for instance, Joel speaks about a time when God will bring the nations up against Israel to do battle to a place he calls "the valley of decision." or "valley of judgment." And what is being evaluated is whether Yahweh is God or not. Just as Elijah tested the prophets of Baal who ate at the table of Jezebel, God will test the world to see if they agree that Yahweh is God or not. This will all take place during a time when Israel has a king on the throne, when Israel has true prophets in her midst, and when the Levites are offering righteous offerings on the fire.
This is part of God's plan to vindicate his holy name. It will be shown that he can lead his people into all righteousness. The entire nation will turn to God and keep his commandments and live as a holy nation before him and the rest of the world. This will prove that his original commandments and covenant were not a cosmic joke, that the original offer of shalom was a bone fide offer, and that it wasn't impossible to please God through the law through faith. Right now, us Gentiles think that God was ridiculous to make such an offer to human beings since he couldn't possibly have expected the Jews to keep his commandments and benefit from his offer of peace, prosperity and protection in the land of promise. Gentiles like us think that God was prone to make mistakes and that he couldn't get salvation right the first time and that he needed to experiment with trial and error before he got it right. Yahweh was really an inept God as God's go and wasn't able to keep the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians or the Romans from harming his people, in fact, he couldn't even keep his messiah safe from harm. (I am speaking from the point of view of the world. I don't really believe this.) He plans to bring Israel back to the land, have them keep the commandments just as he gave them to him, bring the other nations against them and protect them from harm all because he wants to restore his name.Why would God wish that?
That's right. This entire scenario takes place in this age and has the sole purpose of vindicating God. The restoration of the nation of Israel, the restoration of the law, and the temple services and the Levites and all of that will serve this single purpose during the final days of this world. After that, God brings down the new Jerusalem and we all stop crying etc.You don't seem to have the eternal in view at all. Your entire focus seems to be on earthly and temporal things.
I'm not suggesting that Jesus is not our high priest. He is. But in order to say that the OT prophecies no longer apply they need to be seen as some kind of allegory or metaphor rather than a description of literal events and motivations.I absolutely do not ignore any scripture. And what does it even mean to spiritualize scripture? Much of scripture has to do with spiritual things so what could be wrong with having a spiritual understanding of Christ's throne and Him being our High Priest?
You are talking about passage like the sheep and the goats, the fish on the shore, the wheat and the tares and all of those passages that talk about the end of the age when all are resurrected to face the final judgment. I agree with all of that and have no problem with that. Where we disagree, I think, is in your conclusion that these passages rule out an earthly rule of Jesus prior to that. I don't think they do.The passages I cited speak of what occurs at the end of the age, which is what you were talking about. You said, "let's not make the mistake to assume that this eliminates God's word concerning his plans for the end of this age, which are temporal in nature". I'm disagreeing with that point and saying that instead His plans for the end of this age are eternal in nature.
But, now, I ask you, does God change?
And will He ignore the abuse of His Law with people that claim to follow His Law?
I say that a people that claims to believe in The Law Of Moses will be held to that high standard.
ROM 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
ROM 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
I don't, however, see anything that says Jews will never be allowed to build another temple, but I do understand that there is not a need because of Christ.
PROV 25:26 Like a muddied spring, and a polluted well, so is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked. -World English Bible
MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?
AMOS 6:3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
Righteousness comes from the Bible, but our ability to possess the Bible comes from the possession of the sword.
The Hindus could build another temple. The buddhists, The Mayans. Anybody could build a temple. What has that got to do with God? God has a temple. It is made without hands with Christ as its cornerstone. It is made of living stones which are the saints. God has a chosen and Holy nation of His own possession. It is the church.
all the best...
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