The 4th horseman?

[thedee]

before[/I] taking into account the other textual cues). Your suggestion that "white" and stephanos are related to "overcoming" and that they can thusly apply to anyone, I think, falls apart once John's consistent usage of the two items is taken into account. The few times he depicts any evildoers as "overcoming", not once do they have "white" or stephanos applied to them; they just don't have a universal application in the book

Christ is the one breaking the seals "The Lamb opened one of the seals"... He is not the one coming in Revelation 6:2.

So are you going to say that Revelation 6:2 and Revelation 19:11-16 are the same event happening at the same time?

[thedee]

The unsaved world is already deceived by the power of antichrists.

The ultimate deception is explained in 2Thes 2:4.... This is the AntiChrist. He sits in the temple and claims to be God.

[thedee]

There is no curse in the first seal. The first creature the Lion (representing Christ) calls the white horse to ride (his church). They rode out conquering for God and were given a victorious crown.
It mentions no war, famine, ect. in the first seal. The first seal has to be something righteous.
This is symbolic prophecy. There has to be reasons why each specific creature called forth a rider. The lion, ox, man, and eagle. Thanks!

Revelation 6:2 is AntiChrist trying to mimic Christ.... This is a deception (Mat 24:4-5; John 5:43; Dan 9:27)

[thedee]

Also, comes with a sword not a bow. Revelation 6:2 shows a bow... Revelation 16:15 shows a sword (word of God).

[RogerW]

Christ came one time so far and died on the cross.... that is the first comming. The Second Comming occurs after all the events in Revelation.... not at the beginning of all these events. (Revelation 19:11-16)

I haven't implied otherwise. FWIW I view Rev 19:11-16 to encompass the whole NT era. The rider on the white horse "called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war" is the same rider on the white horse in Rev 6 Who "went forth conquering, and to conquer."

[markedward]

Christ is the one breaking the seals "The Lamb opened one of the seals"... He is not the one coming in Revelation 6:2.

I didn't say the white horseman was Christ. I simply said it was personifying something righteous, not wicked. Remember this post? The one you already replied to? The one in which I said that the rider of the white horse in 6.2 is a personification of the Church? I take it you didn't read the whole thing, or you wouldn't be putting words in my mouth...

[RogerW]

Also, comes with a sword not a bow. Revelation 6:2 shows a bow... Revelation 16:15 shows a sword (word of God).

The bow signifies the nativity, or birth of Christ.

Bow - 5115. toxon - from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow.

5088. tikto - a strengthened form of a primary teko tek'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literally or figuratively:--bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.

See Mt 1:21,23,25; 2:2; Lu 1:31,57; 2:6,7,11; Rev 12:2,4,5,13

[RockSolid]

Looks like no one is changing anyones mind here so I leave you with this. If Revelation 6:2 is still seen as a deception, despite evidence to the contrary, then you could make any verse in the Bible into a deception. That's how crystal clear this verse should be.
All evidence points to it being righteous, no evidence points to it being evil. The entire entity would have to be a deception, and I would venture to say that it would be the only example of God doing this anywhere in Bible prophecy. Thanks!

[thedee]

The bow signifies the nativity, or birth of Christ.

Bow - 5115. toxon - from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):--bow.

5088. tikto - a strengthened form of a primary teko tek'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literally or figuratively:--bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.

See Mt 1:21,23,25; 2:2; Lu 1:31,57; 2:6,7,11; Rev 12:2,4,5,13

I believe the bow can speak of evil:
"For look! The wicked bend their bow, They make ready their arrow on the string, That they may shoot secretly at the upright in heart." - Ps 11:2

[Hawkins]

I think that the verses may bear multi-fold meanings. And in a broader sense, they may represent a kind of 'power shift'. Perhaps it's just me who think in this way.

White horse
The white conquered the world and thus was in control of the world's economic power and etc.

Red horse
Following that the communism was spreaded all over the world and thus became a counter power to those traditional power acquired in the 'white horse' stage

Black horse
Non-white power will rise up and will cause a power shift (economy and etc) from the traditional power (acquired in both the 'white horse' and 'red horse' stage) to the non-white nations (third world countries in our human term).

Pale horse
Yet another power shift. This time it is a shift from the traditional power to the godless (say, atheism) ones. Nations, including the 'white' power (traditional conquerer nations of white, such as US, England, French and etc.), the 'red' power (traditionally communist nations, Russia, China and etc) and the 'black' power (uprising third world countries such as China, India, Brazil and etc.) will thus become more and more towards godlessness.

[markedward]

I think that the verses may bear multi-fold meanings. And in a broader sense, they may represent a kind of 'power shift'. Perhaps it's just me who think in this way.

But... what Biblical reasoning do you use for your interpretation? You haven't offered any Scripture to support your assertions.

[Nihil Obstat]

What do you guys think of this: Granted by the time we get to 6:1-2, it is only the saints who will be "given" anything, and who are encouraged to "overcome", and who are related to the color "white", and promised "crowns", but here we see something different. In the seven letters, those who overcome will be given something, whereas here the first rider is given something in order to overcome. The saints aren't given crowns in order to overcome: when they overcome they are given crowns. What are your thoughts on this difference? I think it points away from the first rider being the saints proclaiming the gospel, but what do you think?

[Hawkins]

But... what Biblical reasoning do you use for your interpretation? You haven't offered any Scripture to support your assertions.

Other version of interpretation (about the 4 horses at least) are not supported by the scripture either. They are all human interrpetations about what the Book of Revelation is talking about what would happen in the end time. Salvation doctrine is supported by the scripture, prophecies mentioned in the Book of Revelations are in form of human guess, it is so till the prophecies come to pass.


BTW, can you name me a version of interpretation which is supported by the scripture, regarding to the 4 horses and the beast's number 666? There's no such a legitimate version so far yet!

Moreover, if it is assumed (just assume) that what my version of interpretation is correct, that is, one of hte meaning of the 4 horses are representing the 4 successive power shift I mentioned, what support of scripture to do want to support such a truth? Do you want some scripture verses which also mention the same thing? Please just tell me in form of support do yo want from the scripture?

[RogerW]

What do you guys think of this: Granted by the time we get to 6:1-2, it is only the saints who will be "given" anything, and who are encouraged to "overcome", and who are related to the color "white", and promised "crowns", but here we see something different. In the seven letters, those who overcome will be given something, whereas here the first rider is given something in order to overcome. The saints aren't given crowns in order to overcome: when they overcome they are given crowns. What are your thoughts on this difference? I think it points away from the first rider being the saints proclaiming the gospel, but what do you think?

Hi Astro,

I've become truly intrigued about the "bow" - ..."he that sat on him had a bow". Naturally the mind immediately goes to a weapon of war this one going forth uses to conquer. But the definition doesn't fit a natural understanding of "bow" describing a weapon of war at all. And it does not help that this is the only verse in the New Testament where this Greek word toxon, translated "bow" is found. Looking at the base word tikto it comes from, adds further confusion, until we do a little research from OT prophecy.

Zechariah 9:10 makes reference to "the battle bow."

Zec*9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

When we read Zec 9 in context there is little doubt that it is Messianic prophecy.

Zec*9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Zec*9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
Zec*9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

The rider on the white horse in Rev 19:11 is called "faithful and true and in righteousness he doth judge and make war"...armies follow Him riding upon white horses, and out of His mouth goes a sharp sword [the Word] for conquering, and the name written on His thigh is King of kings and Lord of lords. The "bow" then seems to be a symbol of strength given the One [Christ] who went forth conquering, and to conquer in the power of the Word and Spirit.

Re*19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Re*19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Re*19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Many Blessings,
RW

[markedward]

what do you think?

Christ said, "Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown." We have already been given our crowns, so to speak (i.e. "already, not yet"). There are also the 24 elders, which (based strictly on the imagery associated with them) represent the Church, and they already have their crowns as well. [Revelation 4.4]