Overcoming Sin

[Firefighter]

That's the thing though... it really isn't a process. It isn't a process to stop killing. One need just stop killing. Same with stealing, lying, sexual immorality, gossip, etc. I didn't say it is that easy to do but very simply... the only option according to Scripture... stop it. I know folks (many as I am sure you know as well) that have been on a process for many years now and all the while... they're crowing "the Lord's still working on me!"

It certainly is a process. One might need to "just stop killing" but it might take longer to address the anger or lack of forgiveness behind the killing. Are you without sin or is God still working on you? Do you still occasionally commit the same sins you did before you were saved?

(not excusing sin, just being honest)

[John146]

That's the thing though... it really isn't a process. It isn't a process to stop killing. One need just stop killing. Same with stealing, lying, sexual immorality, gossip, etc. I didn't say it is that easy to do but very simply... the only option according to Scripture... stop it. I know folks (many as I am sure you know as well) that have been on a process for many years now and all the while... they're crowing "the Lord's still working on me!"

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting that you have reached a state of sinless perfection (you never sin)? What if someone doesn't do that? What would that mean? Even Paul didn't reach that goal, though he certainly pursued it.

Phil 3
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[John146]

It is to show that as a process we should not remain were we were when we began.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

We should at some point stop acting as babes.

Yes, that's true! So, why up to this point have you acted as if Christians should never be babes even from day one of their Christian walk? You have said that if a Christian sins even once after they are saved then they lose their salvation. That's where I have a problem with in your doctrine. It doesn't even allow time for babes to grow up. Have you now changed your doctrine or do you still believe that if a babe in Christ sins they lose their salvation?

[Slug1]

That's how some folks are wired... tis the importance of them getting in the Book. Unfortunately today... many get bunched up when that's brought up to because it's not about works you know! " Thing is... folks need to stop sinning and there's where it is at. We can go on about the how I suppose... but I guess I'm perplexed at how folks react to a very simple message. Stop it! Seems folks find that just too simplistic to understand. Sadly... it is that simple and excuses complicate things greatly.

I don't thinks it's how people are "wired", I feel it's more about the nearness people are to God so the Holy Spirit can work in them. Imagine saying, Jesus I believe in you and I accept you as my Savior, forgive me of my sins. Then at that moment, Jesus convicted you of EVERY SINGLE SIN you ever committed, IDed all the chains that bind you to sin and while we're at it, all the sins you will commit from that very moment to the day you die?

Just a little overwhelming... huh?

The Holy Spirit will convict and as a person draws near(er) to God, more sin is placed before ones eyes and they are convicted. Then the hidden sin, or hidden causes that lead to a sinful nature.

Sure, people can "stop" but what is holding them back from the sinning? Is it the conditioning that they pound into themselves like so many learn to do through secular recovery programs, well... it's still there under all that conditioning piled on top of it holding it down. Or have they gone through a process of healing and Jesus "removes" ALL the elements within us that causes a person to want to sin?

Once all those wants or causes are removed, then they don't sin... temptation doesn't even dent the Armor anymore.

Jesus does and has healed immediately upon acceptance of Him and when a person lifted up a sin while accepting Him they are never touched by it again... testimony is given by God to them and the person has experienced the healing power of God. What about any other sin they have and these take time to surrender over as the Holy Spirit walks them through, step by step?

[Brother Mark]

That's the thing though... it really isn't a process. It isn't a process to stop killing. One need just stop killing. Same with stealing, lying, sexual immorality, gossip, etc. I didn't say it is that easy to do but very simply... the only option according to Scripture... stop it. I know folks (many as I am sure you know as well) that have been on a process for many years now and all the while... they're crowing "the Lord's still working on me!"

Well, I certainly don't want to excuse sin. I get this point and won't argue it. Though I will point out that there are layers to sin. For instance, one has to learn the difference between righteous anger and unrighteous anger. One may stop drug use, but what of the mind set of self pity and escapism into something else (i.e. games, TV, sports, family, etc.)? They may not even realize it's wrong till God convicts them of it.

That's how some folks are wired... tis the importance of them getting in the Book. Unfortunately today... many get bunched up when that's brought up to because it's not about works you know! " Thing is... folks need to stop sinning and there's where it is at. We can go on about the how I suppose... but I guess I'm perplexed at how folks react to a very simple message. Stop it! Seems folks find that just too simplistic to understand. Sadly... it is that simple and excuses complicate things greatly.

But that's the thing PP, until God points it out, they won't stop it. That's my point in this thread. Then, once it's point out, a battle ensues and one overcomes.

Also, I do believe that a believer can have a stronghold and must fight to be free. I don't believe all victory is instaneous in walking it out. Joshua fought from a place of victory, but he still had to wage war to kick the enemy out of his land. That's how I see our battle over sin too. We don't even know what is in the land till we spy it out with God. Once we see it, then we go to war and kick them out. The alternative is to spend our lives in the desert and there are serpants over there that bite and kill.

[ClayInHisHands]

I agree that it is a process. When we are saved, yes, we do not at that instant overcome every sin in our lives or even 2 or 3 weeks later either. However, I agree with ProjectPeter. I think alot of people who say "it's a process"....not you Brother Mark or anyone else on here specifically either...I think they excuse sin in what I call a "subtle compromise". Alot of times they don't even realize they are compromising. In a nutshell here's how I see it in my life. There are things that I still struggle with in my life. I have cried out desparately for God to change me with these things. I can tell without a doubt in my mind when God is working and changing me...and I know for a fact when I am sitting around in agony of why I keep tripping is because I know deep down inside I am putting up a wall and being selfish and not truly desiring to allow God to change some of those things. I need more patience....God won't go poof! and then I have patience. He will give me opportunities to be patient. Tempatation will come...it's up to me whether I react or act. We could discuss this all day and agree that yes we grow into the likeness and image of Christ, but we also have to get real with ourselves and ask....are we really submitting to the will of God and are we really laying down our selfish pride and letting God truly do a work in us like He desires? We shouldn't sit around condemning ourselves, but we should be anguishing over the sin in our lives and desparately seek to stop sinning against our Father in heaven. Again, not to say anyone here has said that....but in all honesty, it is happening widespread within the church today and I have seen it first hand with many others, including myself.


In Christ's Love

[Brother Mark]

I am now officially disappointed in this thread. What started out as a "how do we stop sinning" is no longer on that track. I know a great many people who would like the answer to that question. I know for me personally, I had a sin in my life I struggled with mightily. I went to God about it many times. Finally, it came out that my issue was with fairness. I wanted things to be fair. When I let go of that expectation, the anger and bitterness went away. But until I knew that fairness was at it's root, I had no power over it. Once God taught me the truth, the truth set me free. I had to let an expectation go that was killing me but I didn't even know I had it till God spoke to me about it.

(And Clay, this is not directed at you. You just happened to be the post above mine.)

[VerticalReality]

Also, I do believe that a believer can have a stronghold and must fight to be free. I don't believe all victory is instaneous in walking it out. Joshua fought from a place of victory, but he still had to wage war to kick the enemy out of his land. That's how I see our battle over sin too. We don't even know what is in the land till we spy it out with God. Once we see it, then we go to war and kick them out. The alternative is to spend our lives in the desert and there are serpants over there that bite and kill.

Scripture shows, though, that God may point something out as sinful and yet the person still has struggles with it. Just saying to a person, "Stop it!" is not acceptable. The purpose of this thread is to continue past that with the correct teaching of, "Stop sinning . . . and this is how."

Why ministers today want to stop at, "Stop sinning!" is very disturbing. All it does is condemn people that in some cases already don't want to do what they are doing just as Paul didn't in Romans 7. We need to be ministers of reconciliation and show people the way to be reconciled to God. We don't need to be ministers of condemnation spouting off at people about their sinful behavior and just telling them to stop it. That's what the law did, and we certainly do not need to continue that ministry.

Show folks the truth and the way to freedom. That's our calling.

[Brother Mark]

Scripture shows, though, that God may point something out as sinful and yet the person still has struggles with it. Just saying to a person, "Stop it!" is not acceptable. The purpose of this thread is to continue past that with the correct teaching of, "Stop sinning . . . and this is how."

There is a battle involved in many sins. And I agree with you it is more a process than an instant. Even with the miracle of Jericho it took days to overcome while conquoring all the land took a long time. I definitely agree that "just stop it" won't work with some things. It would not have worked with me and my anger issue. What did work was when God told me the truth about it's source and showed me mercy.

Why ministers today want to stop at, "Stop sinning!" is very disturbing. All it does is condemn people that in some cases already don't want to do what they are doing just as Paul didn't in Romans 7. We need to be ministers of reconciliation and show people the way to be reconciled to God. We don't need to be ministers of condemnation spouting off at people about their sinful behavior and just telling them to stop it. That's what the law did, and we certainly do not need to continue that ministry.

Show folks the truth and the way to freedom. That's our calling.

Insightful.

[ProjectPeter]

It certainly is a process. One might need to "just stop killing" but it might take longer to address the anger or lack of forgiveness behind the killing. Are you without sin or is God still working on you? Do you still occasionally commit the same sins you did before you were saved?

(not excusing sin, just being honest)

Let me ask you this because what I do or don't do doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things (your obedience... not mine or others). Show me this in the Bible. I've already shown clearly where Paul simply told them to stop sinning as they ought. I can show you many more such passages although I know you know Scripture well enough to know those passages already. But show me where the Apostles or Jesus taught all of this (stop at your own speed) type teaching?

[ProjectPeter]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting that you have reached a state of sinless perfection (you never sin)? What if someone doesn't do that? What would that mean? Even Paul didn't reach that goal, though he certainly pursued it.

Phil 3
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

You don't know if Paul reached that state or not... one has to assume that. Scripture doesn't say. And my point is that it doesn't matter if I am sinless or not. Not in regard to your own personal walk. What does the Scripture say? Posted several times already.... are we to take it for what it says or not?

[HisLeast]

You don't know if Paul reached that state or not... one has to assume that. Scripture doesn't say. And my point is that it doesn't matter if I am sinless or not. Not in regard to your own personal walk. What does the Scripture say? Posted several times already.... are we to take it for what it says or not?

It matters to people because its being taught. If a teacher wants to teach me that sinless perfection is the required end result, and that all sinning simply ends when we decide it ends... I'd like to know if there's anyone that has actually done that.

You ask for scriptures, and I humbly submit that they have been provided for you. The last thing we know of Paul was moving towards that state. It seems to me that if Paul is striving for it, then that's cool, but if I am striving for it, then that is somehow not good enough for the teachers. My journey out of pornography took a substantial amount of time. There was a definite point in time where I went beyond my normal promises to repent and actually started getting to the bottom of it... but it wasn't instant. "Just stop it" didn't work for me. I'm sorry it didn't. It just gets really discouraging to hear from the church that instant fixes are the only acceptable ones.

[Firstfruits]

Yes, that's true! So, why up to this point have you acted as if Christians should never be babes even from day one of their Christian walk? You have said that if a Christian sins even once after they are saved then they lose their salvation. That's where I have a problem with in your doctrine. It doesn't even allow time for babes to grow up. Have you now changed your doctrine or do you still believe that if a babe in Christ sins they lose their salvation?

Because the message to all from the Father is that we do not sin. If we canot do as God has commanded and contiue as though we have no choice but to sin we are not giving a good example to the new in Christ. Will they not say " well if those that have been here before me cannot do Gods will whats the rush"

Firstfruits

[John146]

You don't know if Paul reached that state or not... one has to assume that.

What state are you referring to? I was speaking of the state of perfection which Paul said he had not attained, but he did pursue that goal. So, I assume that's what you're referring to as well. I'm not aware of any scripture that says he eventually reached it, but that's really beyond the point that I'm trying to make.

And my point is that it doesn't matter if I am sinless or not. Not in regard to your own personal walk. What does the Scripture say? Posted several times already.... are we to take it for what it says or not?

Of course we take it for what is says but some add to what it says. See, my problem is with people like Firstfruits who say that we have to be sinless to be saved. Is that what you believe? I have no problem with pointing out the importance of us needing to strive for holiness, but to suggest that unless we are perfect we're not saved is clearly going too far.

[Slug1]

It matters to people because its being taught. If a teacher wants to teach me that sinless perfection is the required end result, and that all sinning simply ends when we decide it ends... I'd like to know if there's anyone that has actually done that.

You ask for scriptures, and I humbly submit that they have been provided for you. The last thing we know of Paul was moving towards that state. It seems to me that if Paul is striving for it, then that's cool, but if I am striving for it, then that is somehow not good enough for the teachers. My journey out of pornography took a substantial amount of time. There was a definite point in time where I went beyond my normal promises to repent and actually started getting to the bottom of it... but it wasn't instant. "Just stop it" didn't work for me. I'm sorry it didn't. It just gets really discouraging to hear from the church that instant fixes are the only acceptable ones.

Sinless and bound by sin or even giving in to sin... I feel are different things. We can't be "sinless", Bible is clear but to be bound to or even willfully sin, we all can overcome and resist through Christ.

I just read this scripture:

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

We just have to be obedient to God, follow the lead by the Holy Spirit and do all He says to do.

If Christ stepped right infront of you and said... "Sin no more"... would you be able to do it? If Jesus, Himself stood right infront of you and said, "Sin no more"... is their obedience to this order or disobedience?

I can think of two in the Bible that He spoke those words to and in so doing as we read, He's saying the exact same to us all. I failed in following those words, I'll be the first to admit it and have on this board and personally with people I have spoken to.

We just have to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit as Jesus enables us. I know for a fact that if Jesus stood before me and said, "Sin no more" that I wouldn't. My flesh get's between me and the very same words I read in the Bible that HE SAID and through the Bible is SAYING right now.

I have also felt what it is like to not be touched by temptation and not sin, not even a need or an effort to resist temptation during a fasting period that God ordered me to do. So I feel I know what the result would be to do as Jesus commands through the words... "Sin no more".