Overcoming Sin

[John146]

Because the message to all from the Father is that we do not sin.

Yes, but the message isn't that we must stop sinning completely or else we lose our salvation. That's where you have gone astray in your doctrine. You eliminate God's grace from being part of salvation when you do that.

If we canot do as God has commanded and contiue as though we have no choice but to sin we are not giving a good example to the new in Christ.

I'm not saying that we have no choice but to sin, I'm saying that it takes time to spiritually mature and learn how to walk in the Spirit consistently. Scripture doesn't say that if we don't immediately mature completely we lose our salvation as your doctrine teaches.

Will they not say " well if those that have been here before me cannot do Gods will whats the rush"

Again, no one is saying that we can't do God's will. Scripture repeatedly speaks of the importance of making the effort to grow spiritually, but it also talks about God graciously giving us the time to grow as His Spirit continues to teach us as time goes on. Wouldn't you agree? If you want to make the point that if someone is not striving to continually grow in the faith then that is a serious problem, I will agree with you on that but I think you take it all too far and end up making salvation a result of man's own righteousness and perfection rather than by God's grace through faith.

[Firstfruits]

Yes, but the message isn't that we must stop sinning completely or else we lose our salvation. That's where you have gone astray in your doctrine. You eliminate God's grace from being part of salvation when you do that.

I'm not saying that we have no choice but to sin, I'm saying that it takes time to spiritually mature and learn how to walk in the Spirit consistently. Scripture doesn't say that if we don't immediately mature completely we lose our salvation as your doctrine teaches.

Again, no one is saying that we can't do God's will. Scripture repeatedly speaks of the importance of making the effort to grow spiritually, but it also talks about God graciously giving us the time to grow as His Spirit continues to teach us as time goes on. Wouldn't you agree? If you want to make the point that if someone is not striving to continually grow in the faith then that is a serious problem, I will agree with you on that but I think you take it all too far and end up making salvation a result of man's own righteousness and perfection rather than by God's grace through faith.

Do you believe that God would say "go and sin no more" and still expect us to continue to sin?

Firstfruits

[Slug1]

Do you believe that God would say "go and sin no more" and still expect us to continue to sin?

Firstfruits

Yes ! Either in thought, action or word... in time, we'll sin.

[John146]

Do you believe that God would say "go and sin no more" and still expect us to continue to sin?

He would not expect us to hear or read that and then make no effort to try to obey that command. But what that command doesn't mean is "Go and sin no more or else I will take your salvation away". But that's how you interpret it, isn't it?

[Firstfruits]

Yes ! Either in thought, action or word... in time, we'll sin.

So although God has given us his commandment he does not expect us to do his will? Can God punish us for not doing his will and not keeping his commandment?

Firstfruits

[ProjectPeter]

I don't thinks it's how people are "wired", I feel it's more about the nearness people are to God so the Holy Spirit can work in them. Imagine saying, Jesus I believe in you and I accept you as my Savior, forgive me of my sins. Then at that moment, Jesus convicted you of EVERY SINGLE SIN you ever committed, IDed all the chains that bind you to sin and while we're at it, all the sins you will commit from that very moment to the day you die?

Just a little overwhelming... huh?

The Holy Spirit will convict and as a person draws near(er) to God, more sin is placed before ones eyes and they are convicted. Then the hidden sin, or hidden causes that lead to a sinful nature.

Sure, people can "stop" but what is holding them back from the sinning? Is it the conditioning that they pound into themselves like so many learn to do through secular recovery programs, well... it's still there under all that conditioning piled on top of it holding it down. Or have they gone through a process of healing and Jesus "removes" ALL the elements within us that causes a person to want to sin?

Once all those wants or causes are removed, then they don't sin... temptation doesn't even dent the Armor anymore.

Jesus does and has healed immediately upon acceptance of Him and when a person lifted up a sin while accepting Him they are never touched by it again... testimony is given by God to them and the person has experienced the healing power of God. What about any other sin they have and these take time to surrender over as the Holy Spirit walks them through, step by step?

Thing is... sin is revealed as folks gain knowledge... that's a given. Folks often confuse "virtue" as godliness in 2 Peter 1... yet godliness is mentioned later up the ladder (if you will). Sinless perfection from salvation isn't what it is about. Virtue or moral excellence as some translate it... that ain't "sinlessness." Nevertheless... godliness is just that and that is before brotherly love and love (agape). So can one get there... sure they can. Otherwise Paul would have been rather retarded demanded it from the sheep and I am not figuring that Jesus nor he asked of us something that was impossible to do. Keep in mind too that "impossible" is a word that has no faith behind it.

[ProjectPeter]

Well, I certainly don't want to excuse sin. I get this point and won't argue it. Though I will point out that there are layers to sin. For instance, one has to learn the difference between righteous anger and unrighteous anger. One may stop drug use, but what of the mind set of self pity and escapism into something else (i.e. games, TV, sports, family, etc.)? They may not even realize it's wrong till God convicts them of it.

But that's the thing PP, until God points it out, they won't stop it. That's my point in this thread. Then, once it's point out, a battle ensues and one overcomes.

Also, I do believe that a believer can have a stronghold and must fight to be free. I don't believe all victory is instaneous in walking it out. Joshua fought from a place of victory, but he still had to wage war to kick the enemy out of his land. That's how I see our battle over sin too. We don't even know what is in the land till we spy it out with God. Once we see it, then we go to war and kick them out. The alternative is to spend our lives in the desert and there are serpants over there that bite and kill.

Well, I'd make the case that there is a very large difference between "sin" and what man might call sin. To some... going to a movie is sin and it doesn't matter the movie because simply going... you support all the other stuff. Those folks have their opinion and make their biblical case for it. After that... they log off the Internet (times worse problem than movies) and go to bed if late... if not they turn on their television to wind down some (just as bad a problem as a movie in many regards). Men tend to invent... even reinvent sin as they go along. We call it self-pity and escapism and give the actual sin of "selfishness" and thus the person never gets past the real issue and that is that they are selfish as all get out and they need to just stop.

[John146]

Thing is... sin is revealed as folks gain knowledge... that's a given. Folks often confuse "virtue" as godliness in 2 Peter 1... yet godliness is mentioned later up the ladder (if you will). Sinless perfection from salvation isn't what it is about.

But, you see, that is what it is about to Firstfruits. That's the issue that many of us have with his doctrine. That's largely what all these threads that he has created are about. He is trying to teach that sinless perfection is necessary for salvation. That is what I and others are refuting more than anything else. I would never try to preach against imploring people to pursue holiness and godliness because scripture repeatedly does so.

[ProjectPeter]

I am now officially disappointed in this thread. What started out as a "how do we stop sinning" is no longer on that track. I know a great many people who would like the answer to that question. I know for me personally, I had a sin in my life I struggled with mightily. I went to God about it many times. Finally, it came out that my issue was with fairness. I wanted things to be fair. When I let go of that expectation, the anger and bitterness went away. But until I knew that fairness was at it's root, I had no power over it. Once God taught me the truth, the truth set me free. I had to let an expectation go that was killing me but I didn't even know I had it till God spoke to me about it.

(And Clay, this is not directed at you. You just happened to be the post above mine.)

You stop sinning when you stop doing the sin you're doing. I guess I would challenge your "fairness" issue and say it was likely not even that but selfishness (the root of most sin we're going to commit). That is why in 2 Peter 1,... right after knowledge we must tackle self-control. Without that... we will never have perseverance, godliness, etc. It's where most folk are stuck at truth be told, especially in the US. I say that because there is nothing wrong with fairness or an expectation of fairness. In other words... not a sin.

[Brother Mark]

You stop sinning when you stop doing the sin you're doing. I guess I would challenge your "fairness" issue and say it was likely not even that but selfishness (the root of most sin we're going to commit). That is why in 2 Peter 1,... right after knowledge we must tackle self-control. Without that... we will never have perseverance, godliness, etc. It's where most folk are stuck at truth be told, especially in the US. I say that because there is nothing wrong with fairness or an expectation of fairness. In other words... not a sin.

I didn't claim fairness was a sin. I said it led to sin. Big difference. My demanding that God make things fair (which is more what it was like) and an inner demand that things be fair (yea, that was there too) led to bitterness which is a sin. Once the fairness thing was gone, the bitterness left.

Hey Ken, you can wrap it up and package and it and bring it around to selfishness (of course that's it, it's always it) but the thing is, when God was dealing with it, he used the word "fair". Why? Because that was the key to dealing with it.

[Brother Mark]

Thing is... sin is revealed as folks gain knowledge... that's a given. Folks often confuse "virtue" as godliness in 2 Peter 1... yet godliness is mentioned later up the ladder (if you will). Sinless perfection from salvation isn't what it is about. Virtue or moral excellence as some translate it... that ain't "sinlessness." Nevertheless... godliness is just that and that is before brotherly love and love (agape). So can one get there... sure they can. Otherwise Paul would have been rather retarded demanded it from the sheep and I am not figuring that Jesus nor he asked of us something that was impossible to do. Keep in mind too that "impossible" is a word that has no faith behind it.

Most of us are saying that PP. FF doesn't agree with us that sin is revealed as folks gain knowledge.

Thing is, we do things that are not loving but don't realize it and we sin against our brother. IMO, that's one reason God instructs us to go to our brother and tell them. In this way, we strengthen the relationship and we both learn.

[Firefighter]

Let me ask you this because what I do or don't do doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things (your obedience... not mine or others). Show me this in the Bible. I've already shown clearly where Paul simply told them to stop sinning as they ought. I can show you many more such passages although I know you know Scripture well enough to know those passages already. But show me where the Apostles or Jesus taught all of this (stop at your own speed) type teaching?

No where did I say stop at your own speed, only that it is a process that takes a while. Can you show me one person in scripture that was fully sanctified to the point of sinless perfection? If it is a matter of "just stop sinning" why is it that contrary to mine an your best efforts, we still sin? Why don't we "just stop"? Paul wasn't perfect and struggled to do the things he wanted to do...

Romans 15-20 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

[ProjectPeter]

I agree that it is a process. When we are saved, yes, we do not at that instant overcome every sin in our lives or even 2 or 3 weeks later either. However, I agree with ProjectPeter. I think alot of people who say "it's a process"....not you Brother Mark or anyone else on here specifically either...I think they excuse sin in what I call a "subtle compromise". Alot of times they don't even realize they are compromising. In a nutshell here's how I see it in my life. There are things that I still struggle with in my life. I have cried out desparately for God to change me with these things. I can tell without a doubt in my mind when God is working and changing me...and I know for a fact when I am sitting around in agony of why I keep tripping is because I know deep down inside I am putting up a wall and being selfish and not truly desiring to allow God to change some of those things. I need more patience....God won't go poof! and then I have patience. He will give me opportunities to be patient. Tempatation will come...it's up to me whether I react or act. We could discuss this all day and agree that yes we grow into the likeness and image of Christ, but we also have to get real with ourselves and ask....are we really submitting to the will of God and are we really laying down our selfish pride and letting God truly do a work in us like He desires? We shouldn't sit around condemning ourselves, but we should be anguishing over the sin in our lives and desparately seek to stop sinning against our Father in heaven. Again, not to say anyone here has said that....but in all honesty, it is happening widespread within the church today and I have seen it first hand with many others, including myself.


In Christ's Love

Exactly... and when we get stuck in 1 John 1 without paying attention to why John said "if you say you have no sin..." then we're never going to get what John was saying. John said that not to say that man can't stop sinning but as in 2:1... I tell you this so you may not sin and IF you sin... John's goal was for folks to STOP IT!!! Not continue in it. None of them explained this "process" to us as we hear it today. They simply said stop it. To some it will be harder than to another for a variety of reasons. We can psycho-analyze it until we puke shrinks... but it will differ from person to person and ultimately come down to how bad one wants to stop it. Heathen folk stop dope, smoking, drinking, adultery and whatnot and do so without the Holy Spirit. Some go through programs and some just stop on their own. How much more so should we be able to when we do have the Holy Spirit (if we in fact do)?

[ProjectPeter]

It matters to people because its being taught. If a teacher wants to teach me that sinless perfection is the required end result, and that all sinning simply ends when we decide it ends... I'd like to know if there's anyone that has actually done that.

You ask for scriptures, and I humbly submit that they have been provided for you. The last thing we know of Paul was moving towards that state. It seems to me that if Paul is striving for it, then that's cool, but if I am striving for it, then that is somehow not good enough for the teachers. My journey out of pornography took a substantial amount of time. There was a definite point in time where I went beyond my normal promises to repent and actually started getting to the bottom of it... but it wasn't instant. "Just stop it" didn't work for me. I'm sorry it didn't. It just gets really discouraging to hear from the church that instant fixes are the only acceptable ones.

Actually, there has been very little Scripture posted.

Set your eyes on the perfect example, Jesus, and don't worry if man has accomplished it or not. I guarantee you that there aren't many teachers out there today that figure it even remotely possible that you live free from sin. They teach that you'll always have "something" in your life and often enough they will quote from 1 John 1 faster than a Porsche can get from zero to sixty. Problem is... they are misusing that passage if 1 John 2:1 is to be believed.

That it didn't work for you and worked for others... understand that happens and I suspect for a variety of reasons. Nevertheless... I suspect had you been living in your pornography and caught up in it at the end... you'd have stood in judgment for that very sin and would have perished. Glad you're free from it most certainly and you're blessed to have had the time to defeat it even if on your own time schedule. But the Lord is coming back for a pure and spotless bride... not one that is stained and nasty. Not an easy saying I understand... but Scriptural none the less.

[Firefighter]

Peter, we are pure and spotless NOT because of what we do or not do, but by what He has already done. None of us can be good enough to make it to heaven. To suggest otherwise is to say that you can do enough or not do enough to make it to heaven.