Overcoming Sin

[ProjectPeter]

Here is the question and I'm going to be stuck on this. Forget Joe, Kevin, Sue, and Shirley. Why aren't we "sinless?" ME, MYSELF and only I? No one else... just little old me. The person down the street, the neighbor next door and the folks in the same pew as I will all stand before God for their own deeds. But what about me on that day? They say don't sin... yet they sin! So what? Does that mean that you're allowed to do the same? Folks know better than that... shoot... you teach your kids that with the whole "if JoeJoe jumps off a cliff are you going to jump off with him?" idiom.

Let me tell y'all what ticks God off and angers Him. It is sin. Let me also add this. Jesus didn't die so that we can continue to sin. He died to free us sin. Be free and stop sinning as you ought. Call it works based or whatever... don't care. Bible says stop so stop. Any other message out there is of this world no matter how wrapped up in religious speak it is. Any reasoning that excuses sin is also of this world because there is no excuse for sin. IF you sin... you have an advocate with the Father which is Jesus. That needs to be IF you sin instead of our mindset today of WHEN we sin. I promise you that John wasn't retarded and when he penned the word "IF" in 1 John 2:1... he was fully aware of the word "when" and if that is what was meant to be portrayed... it would have been.

[andrew_no_one]

<REDACTED COMMENTS>

On second thought... why should my personal experience matter?

I am very interested to hear (more) about your personal experience.

[BroRog]

Well, we can get into a lot of whatever but truth time. How does one stop stealing? Paul didn't tell them to search their soul and deal with the hurt of when they were a young man and their daddy yelled at them a lot. He told them "if you steal... steal no longer. Geeze guys... that ain't complicated. If you have a problem with porn... unplug your silly computer and throw the thing out the door. Keep no money so that you can't buy it if that turns into a problem. Get the television out of your house and your face in the Book and wear your knees out in prayer. You will overcome. Here is what I promise you... keep that crap in your home and you will never overcome because you're too ignorant to get rid of the very things that tempt you the most. If you have a problem with fornicating... stay home and in the book and on your knees instead of hanging with the girls that trip your trigger. Why in the world do we have to complicate this? It is simple... knock it off.

No wonder folks "struggle" with sin. They are too busy trying to find an inner reason and for the life of me... why? Ultimately it is simply to have a blame for the behavior. All the time the answer is in Scripture. If you __________ (fill in the sin), ______________ (repeat) no longer.

Well, getting on your knees in prayer and reading the Bible sounds all pious and religious and "Christian" but it doesn't really address the problem at all. People sin because they refuse to deal with the truth. It isn't enough to tell someone "don't steal" or "don't sleep with your girl friend." People need reasons why stealing is wrong and why sleeping with your girl friend is wrong. "Because I say so" might work for an eight year old, but grown ups need reasons. And if Christians can't give actual reasons that make sense then what a sad condition we find ourselves in. Either Christianity is a nanny religion that likes to control other people or we have a rational faith and we can give good reasons (other than you will go to hell) for what ought to be done.

[ProjectPeter]

Well, getting on your knees in prayer and reading the Bible sounds all pious and religious and "Christian" but it doesn't really address the problem at all.

I assure you that those are the two places where the problem WILL BE addressed by the ONE that matters most. Matter of fact... I'd bet the farm on that Rog! Call it pious and religious and "Christian" if you want. I'll not be so careless and just tell folks that it is in fact a very Scriptural thing to do.

People sin because they refuse to deal with the truth. It isn't enough to tell someone "don't steal" or "don't sleep with your girl friend." People need reasons why stealing is wrong and why sleeping with your girl friend is wrong. "Because I say so" might work for an eight year old, but grown ups need reasons. And if Christians can't give actual reasons that make sense then what a sad condition we find ourselves in. Either Christianity is a nanny religion that likes to control other people or we have a rational faith and we can give good reasons (other than you will go to hell) for what ought to be done.

Well... myself, I am approaching this as if the folks reading aren't retarded and know perfectly well why it is wrong. I'm not interested in their reasoning. They know, according to Scripture, that it is a sin. If they don't believe that part of Scripture then fornicate and steal away... might as well enjoy life (if they find that enjoyable) here on earth because eternity is going to be hell. Literally.

[Slug1]

I assure you that those are the two places where the problem WILL BE addressed by the ONE that matters most. Matter of fact... I'd bet the farm on that Rog! Call it pious and religious and "Christian" if you want. I'll not be so careless and just tell folks that it is in fact a very Scriptural thing to do.

Well... myself, I am approaching this as if the folks reading aren't retarded and know perfectly well why it is wrong. I'm not interested in their reasoning. They know, according to Scripture, that it is a sin. If they don't believe that part of Scripture then fornicate and steal away... might as well enjoy life (if they find that enjoyable) here on earth because eternity is going to be hell. Literally.

Hooah... do all battle on our knees with the equipment (the Bible) God has given us to fight with.

[BroRog]

I assure you that those are the two places where the problem WILL BE addressed by the ONE that matters most. Matter of fact... I'd bet the farm on that Rog!

Well, I'd bet the farm on Jesus' idea that in order to find freedom, one must seek and face the truth.

Well... myself, I am approaching this as if the folks reading aren't retarded and know perfectly well why it is wrong.

Well I would encourage you to look around at the world in which we live and see that folks are retarded and need help coming ouf of ignorance, superstition, darkness, and foolishness. As this age comes to a close, people aren't even sure that such a thing as truth exists, let alone that we need to seek it and face into it. Our society is losing its vision of what it means to be human, what goodness is, what virtue is, and why truth matters.

You talked about prayer, and pray is what we should do. But what do we pray for? We pray for wisdom, we pray for understanding, we pray to have the scales from our eyes removed, we pray for courage to look at ourselves in the mirror and the eyes to see what is really there. We pray for the Spirit's help, the "Spirit of Truth" as Jesus names him. But after we get off our knees we need to learn that love does not rejoice in unrighteousness but rejoices with the truth, as the Apostle says. We need to learn that a pursuit of the good involves seeking and obeying the truth. We need to realize that those who wish to pursue a life of licentiousness suppress the truth and become darkened, but those who wish to be free of sin allow the truth to come out into the open, face the truth squarely with humility and clarity. We need the wisdom to see that those who perish in the deception of wickedness are those who did not receive a love of the truth. To believe the truth is to face it, to embrace it, to have the courage to admit when we are wrong, not make excuses, seek to improve, seek help, seek encouragement, seek to be a better person.

If anything I have said is not scriptural, please tell me.

[ProjectPeter]

Well, I'd bet the farm on Jesus' idea that in order to find freedom, one must seek and face the truth.

And pray tell... what better place to "seek" and what better place to "face truth" than on one's knees and in the book? Color me all religious, pious, and whatever all... but last I knew... there was no better way to achieve exactly what you are going on about eh?

Well I would encourage you to look around at the world in which we live and see that folks are retarded and need help coming ouf of ignorance, superstition, darkness, and foolishness.

Uh... no they aren't. This world has jumped into those things with eyes wide open Roger. It isn't ignorance in the least. They are "wiser" now than they have ever been and have instead rejected God for those things and done so with eyes wide open. Speaking the western nations as stated a couple of times... just want to clarify to save folks the time of not having to explain how it is with folks in Muslim nations and etc. Truth is... most of those guys receive the truth once told... much easier than our highly educated western folk.

As this age comes to a close, people aren't even sure that such a thing as truth exists, let alone that we need to seek it and face into it. Our society is losing its vision of what it means to be human, what goodness is, what virtue is, and why truth matters.

Oh blah. They reject the truth Rog. They hear it and reject it because they love their "world" much better and the truth tells them they can't do that. That sounds to me like you're having a problem facing the truth.

You talked about prayer, and pray is what we should do. But what do we pray for? We pray for wisdom, we pray for understanding, we pray to have the scales from our eyes removed, we pray for courage to look at ourselves in the mirror and the eyes to see what is really there. We pray for the Spirit's help, the "Spirit of Truth" as Jesus names him. But after we get off our knees we need to learn that love does not rejoice in unrighteousness but rejoices with the truth, as the Apostle says. We need to learn that a pursuit of the good involves seeking and obeying the truth. We need to realize that those who wish to pursue a life of licentiousness suppress the truth and become darkened, but those who wish to be free of sin allow the truth to come out into the open, face the truth squarely with humility and clarity. We need the wisdom to see that those who perish in the deception of wickedness are those who did not receive a love of the truth. To believe the truth is to face it, to embrace it, to have the courage to admit when we are wrong, not make excuses, seek to improve, seek help, seek encouragement, seek to be a better person.

If anything I have said is not scriptural, please tell me.

In reading this... I suspect you might be arguing just to argue because I said something because your agreeing with me while vehemently disagreeing at the same time. None of what you describe here is going to happen without serious time on ones knees and serious time in the book. Period and I suspect you don't really disagree with that. Perhaps it is a messenger problem but for the life of me... what in the world are you arguing about?

[HisLeast]

I am very interested to hear (more) about your personal experience.

I'm happy to discuss the details of my experiences, but never again in a public manner. There was a time I believed that the devestation my sin caused, and the long road to recovery afterwords could at least be used by the church to help someone else. I figured this would be especially true today, when bumper sticker theology rules the day. I've repented fully of that idiocy. Had my testimony taken down and have to give myself a good slap whenever I feel like typing it out again. Its just not worth it.

Anyway, that being said, what would you like to know.

[ProjectPeter]

when bumper sticker theology rules the day.

Great description... I will utilize this in the future!

[BroRog]

And pray tell... what better place to "seek" and what better place to "face truth" than on one's knees and in the book? Color me all religious, pious, and whatever all... but last I knew... there was no better way to achieve exactly what you are going on about eh?

I theory maybe. When you said that we should pray and read the Bible instead of using reason in a rebuke of my view that Christians need to have answers for why things are wrong, I immediately chalked your statement up to religiosity. It sounds so trite.

Paul the apostle talked about how some of the Jews were unwilling and unable to see the truth contained in the Law of Moses even though they heard it read to them every week.

2Cor. 3:12- 16 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

We see here that reading the Bible isn't sufficient to avoid sin when a veil lies over the heart. In Romans chapter 3, Paul argues that being Jewish can be an advantage because God had given them his oracles, but even then, they did not believe them or have faith in God. Jesus critiques his own generation for the fact that they read Moses but didn't allow what they read to affect what they believed or what they did. They were guardians of the scriptures but they didn't "do business" with them.

In another instance, Jesus points out the Pharisee who prayed and fasted and tithed regularly. The Pharisee thanked God that he wasn't like other men. On the surface we can't see what is wrong with this man since he is acting holy and has expressed his gratitude to God, giving him all the credit. However, what the man failed to realize, what many of us fail to realize, is that we ARE like other men. Again, all the Bible reading and praying will do no good unless a man is willing to face the truth.

Uh... no they aren't. This world has jumped into those things with eyes wide open Roger. It isn't ignorance in the least. They are "wiser" now than they have ever been and have instead rejected God for those things and done so with eyes wide open. Speaking the western nations as stated a couple of times... just want to clarify to save folks the time of not having to explain how it is with folks in Muslim nations and etc. Truth is... most of those guys receive the truth once told... much easier than our highly educated western folk.

In Romans the first chapter, Paul talks about men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. It is suppression of the truth that leads to darkness, foolishness, wickedness, idolatry, homosexuality, and etc. If suppression of the truth leads to all that, then the way back is seeking the truth and a willingness, no courage, to face it.

Oh blah. They reject the truth Rog. They hear it and reject it because they love their "world" much better and the truth tells them they can't do that. That sounds to me like you're having a problem facing the truth.

Well, since this is Bible Chat, let's look at some scriptures that support your view.

In reading this... I suspect you might be arguing just to argue because I said something because your agreeing with me while vehemently disagreeing at the same time. None of what you describe here is going to happen without serious time on ones knees and serious time in the book. Period and I suspect you don't really disagree with that. Perhaps it is a messenger problem but for the life of me... what in the world are you arguing about?

What I don't get is why you think the cessation of sin is simply a matter of telling someone "don't do it" and at the same time you feel no need to have, ready at hand, a rational justification for not doing it.

[ProjectPeter]

I theory maybe. When you said that we should pray and read the Bible instead of using reason in a rebuke of my view that Christians need to have answers for why things are wrong, I immediately chalked your statement up to religiosity. It sounds so trite.

Yeah... imagine me quoting Paul and being called trite.... amazing what the church has bought into now days! Can you imagine how stupid Jesus must have sounded when he told those folks.... Go, sin no more. Imagine not getting them to face the truth and get at the root cause and all that stuff! Wait... He did that right? Root cause... sin. Truth facing... you are sinning so stop sinning. Too simple to believe I guess.

Paul the apostle talked about how some of the Jews were unwilling and unable to see the truth contained in the Law of Moses even though they heard it read to them every week.

2Cor. 3:12- 16 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

We see here that reading the Bible isn't sufficient to avoid sin when a veil lies over the heart. In Romans chapter 3, Paul argues that being Jewish can be an advantage because God had given them his oracles, but even then, they did not believe them or have faith in God. Jesus critiques his own generation for the fact that they read Moses but didn't allow what they read to affect what they believed or what they did. They were guardians of the scriptures but they didn't "do business" with them.

Well shoot man! There you go! Folks don't need that there book because didn't do them Jewish folk any good.... uh.... this is really not even a valid point Rog! We are talking about Christian folk overcoming sin right... if they are Christian Rog... I'm assuming that we are beyond the point of them being blinded by a veil. The passage you speak of... in context Rog... they ain't Christian folk. But just to keep folks from arguing just to argue... unbelievers aren't going to stop sinning because they read the Bible or pray a prayer what with them being unbelievers and all. Is that better now?

In another instance, Jesus points out the Pharisee who prayed and fasted and tithed regularly. The Pharisee thanked God that he wasn't like other men. On the surface we can't see what is wrong with this man since he is acting holy and has expressed his gratitude to God, giving him all the credit. However, what the man failed to realize, what many of us fail to realize, is that we ARE like other men. Again, all the Bible reading and praying will do no good unless a man is willing to face the truth.

Uh... not talking about Pharisees or those type of self-righteous blowhards either there Rog! Let me help you and others out. You are making no sense with all of this if you just said... we should pray. Again... you say... praying does no good? Come now Rog!!! Is this one of those cases where Ken says UP and because Ken said UP... thou must say down!

In Romans the first chapter, Paul talks about men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. It is suppression of the truth that leads to darkness, foolishness, wickedness, idolatry, homosexuality, and etc. If suppression of the truth leads to all that, then the way back is seeking the truth and a willingness, no courage, to face it.

Um... in Romans 1 Paul is speaking of unbelievers... folks who have rejected God. It again has nothing at all to do with a Christian saying NO to sinning.

Well, since this is Bible Chat, let's look at some scriptures that support your view.
What I don't get is why you think the cessation of sin is simply a matter of telling someone "don't do it" and at the same time you feel no need to have, ready at hand, a rational justification for not doing it.

Rational justification? Uh... it's a sin and sin really does tick God off badly and in the end... if you are judged a sinner and enemy of God... you will spend eternity in hell where you know... that whole the worm never dies and them there flames never get quenched and the ever present weeping and gnashing of teeth thing! If that ain't rational justification to STOP IT... then you aren't talking to a believer but one who doesn't really believe the Scripture at all. We could get into the whole issue of Jesus dying how He did in order to free man from the junk called sin and because we love Him we shouldn't... but that doesn't seem to work so well as that is the prominent message out there today. So let's ponder that whole sin equals death thing... maybe that will work eh? I mean is that rational justification enough ya think because seriously... a good old fashioned FEAR GOD WHO CAN KILL YOUR BODY AND SEND YOUR SOUL TO HELL sounds in order now days. Seriously... our 12 steps and Jesus loves you messages alone aren't working so hot. As to discussing Scripture to support my view... didn't figure you would even need to ask such as that beccause I know you know where those Scripture are... but hey... color me game. I'll post tomorrow when I get to the church. Works for me and you already know I have plenty of those passages... and they will actually be in context!

[Firstfruits]

Here is the question and I'm going to be stuck on this. Forget Joe, Kevin, Sue, and Shirley. Why aren't we "sinless?" ME, MYSELF and only I? No one else... just little old me. The person down the street, the neighbor next door and the folks in the same pew as I will all stand before God for their own deeds. But what about me on that day? They say don't sin... yet they sin! So what? Does that mean that you're allowed to do the same? Folks know better than that... shoot... you teach your kids that with the whole "if JoeJoe jumps off a cliff are you going to jump off with him?" idiom.

Let me tell y'all what ticks God off and angers Him. It is sin. Let me also add this. Jesus didn't die so that we can continue to sin. He died to free us sin. Be free and stop sinning as you ought. Call it works based or whatever... don't care. Bible says stop so stop. Any other message out there is of this world no matter how wrapped up in religious speak it is. Any reasoning that excuses sin is also of this world because there is no excuse for sin. IF you sin... you have an advocate with the Father which is Jesus. That needs to be IF you sin instead of our mindset today of WHEN we sin. I promise you that John wasn't retarded and when he penned the word "IF" in 1 John 2:1... he was fully aware of the word "when" and if that is what was meant to be portrayed... it would have been.

I agree, the will of God must take first place over the will of Man.

"Go thy way and sin no more" (Jesus).

Firstfruits

[brakelite]

Here is the question and I'm going to be stuck on this. Forget Joe, Kevin, Sue, and Shirley. Why aren't we "sinless?" ME, MYSELF and only I? No one else... just little old me. The person down the street, the neighbor next door and the folks in the same pew as I will all stand before God for their own deeds. But what about me on that day? They say don't sin... yet they sin! So what? Does that mean that you're allowed to do the same? Folks know better than that... shoot... you teach your kids that with the whole "if JoeJoe jumps off a cliff are you going to jump off with him?" idiom.

Let me tell y'all what ticks God off and angers Him. It is sin. Let me also add this. Jesus didn't die so that we can continue to sin. He died to free us sin. Be free and stop sinning as you ought. Call it works based or whatever... don't care. Bible says stop so stop. Any other message out there is of this world no matter how wrapped up in religious speak it is. Any reasoning that excuses sin is also of this world because there is no excuse for sin. IF you sin... you have an advocate with the Father which is Jesus. That needs to be IF you sin instead of our mindset today of WHEN we sin. I promise you that John wasn't retarded and when he penned the word "IF" in 1 John 2:1... he was fully aware of the word "when" and if that is what was meant to be portrayed... it would have been.

PP, your stance on this most important topic, overcoming sin, gives me great joy, and I praise God that there is a voice in Israel willing to take a stand for rightousness.
I am reminded of a question put to a Bible study class once. The question was, "Does Jesus have any hatred in His heart"?
Ones first thought is to answer "of course not, Jesus is all love!!" Right? But the scriptures tell us,
Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God hates sin, with a vengeance! Why? Because He knows that it is sin which separates us from Him!!!! God hates anything that can hurt us. And sin brings death to everything it touches. It brought death even to the Son of God.
I read once a quote, and this is a paraphrase..."he who does not have the faith to believe God can stop him from sinning, does not have the faith to gain him entrance to the kingdom of God". Anyone, and I mean anyone, be they Christian, Muslim, Deist, Hindu or Luciferian or any other faith or non-faith, who thinks that they can enter heaven while cherishing one sinful practice, is deluding himself.
And of all faiths, Chrisianity is the only one that offers hope of freedom from sin, yet astonishingly, it is so often heard in Christian circles, viz-a viz Bible Forums and like boards, and from professing Bible believing Christians, that it is impossible to forsake all sin. Did not Jesus show us how it can be achieved? Does He not promise the Holy Spirit in power and abundance to all those who ask?

Righteousness by faith. One of the most central doctrines of Biblical Christianity, yet one of the most misunderstood.

"Sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under law, but under grace."

[brakelite]

I haven't read through the entire thread, so if someone has already said this, great, because it deserves repeating. The simplest and most effective starting point to overcoming sin is death to self. Submitting or surrendering your total self, the good bad and ugly, to the foot of the cross and asking the Lord to put that old man to death in Jesus. Believe He has done so, expect the new man to live the abundant life of holiness and righteousness befitting one filled with the Spirit of God, befitting one who is partaking of the divine nature, and giving God every opportunity to make the changes necessary to make your life conformable to His will and to His laws.
All by faith. All by grace.

[Sirus]

Should I find it surprising that the OP speaks of how the church today goes on and on about sinning without really discussing how to overcome it, and this is now exactly what this thread has turned in to?

Why don't we just start setting tablets of stone outside our churches and just save people the trouble of coming in?

Love the thread topic! Said the same many times here myself. I am a bit confused though and hoped you could straighten me out. Have you given the answer to the OP? I've read about 80% of the thread and I don't see it. What I see is you mentioning 'relationship' after stating the answers given are not correct. Yet, the answers given are about 'relationship' and that doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe we have a different understanding of 'relationship'? There's a term. You used it. But what does it mean? How is saying that any different than others saying 'walk in the Spirit'? You've stated something to do without saying how to do it, which doesn't answer the OP.