Overcoming Sin

[Sirus]

where did I say the gospel at the beginning of the church was not the whole gospel? And do show this because if I ever said any SUCH thing as that I need to go back and fix it and then go repent of false teaching. And I didnt say a person cannot be saved hearing the gospel... that's just silly to get out of what I said.

Was this preached before Paul?

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...ing-Sin/page22
Sirus -"That's only the beginning/part of the gospel. The gospel is not just Jesus dying for your sins. It's also believers being put into the body of Christ to be crucified, dead, buried, and raised with Christ"

If it was preached, we have no record of it, so you'd have to assume. Something I don't do. How long before Paul came along?

You quoted the above and said

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...01#post2469101
PP -"Totally and 100 percent agree with you here."

Now just so we don't get sidetracked....I was stating most believers do not know their positional death to sin is easily made experiential by believing what Christ did to them -killed them- believing they are dead and are to live as those alive from the dead. You then said

PP -"If they haven't heard the gospel then they aren't even in the race yet."

Now show me scripture that shows the first were taught believers being put into the body of Christ to be crucified, dead, buried, and raised with Christ before Paul.

Uh... that is not what I said either.

Sure is. You called them saintly sinners, among other things. And that's was just one post.

Uh... I posted Scripture where the apostles said... stop sinning. So if you find it still comical then once again... your bone is with Scripture itself. Not with me.

That's because he knew they knew about "believers being put into the body of Christ to be crucified, dead, buried, and raised with Christ.", having preached to them himself. Same with Tozer. Anyone that preaches freedom from sin by the cross to a group or knows they know, can then tell the group to 'stop sinning' -it's a given it's by the cross. They know the way of escape and either accept it or reject it. But you can't just say 'stop sinning' to those that only have law and do not know how to be free by faith. Those that think Romans 6 is positional only. That think they have two natures and they feed the new nature with scripture, prayer, 'church' in order to overcome the old nature they still have. You can't tell them to just stop sinning (thou shalt not) and expect them to. They don't believe they are dead to sin and the law doesn't work because it's weak through the flesh, so they will sin.

And again... you are totally ignoring the point and enter the comment above about totally misrepresenting. The point... it doesn't matter my life. My life isn't going to excuse any one elses life come judgment day. You want to make it into some sort of personal thing as if what? If I was an ax murderer and said Jesus is the only way to salvation... does that mean that it is a lie and therefore there are other ways to salvation? Naturally the truth isn't changed because of the righteousness or unrighteousness of the messenger. It doesn't matter even the least bit what I do or don't do... Scripture is Scripture regardless. You have to contend with Scripture... not my life. Simple enough... get it now?

You are totally missing it. I have no interest in particular sin and comparison. I said that already. What I am interested in is principle. So let me give you the opportunity to define what you mean by practicing sin, since you now take the position that believers can sin the same sin and not be practicing the sin. Get it now?

[BadDog]

Peter,

You should have been surprised to see ES as part of my post, since I did not intend to post any such thing and suprprised myself!

BD

[ProjectPeter]

Was this preached before Paul?

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...ing-Sin/page22
Sirus -"That's only the beginning/part of the gospel. The gospel is not just Jesus dying for your sins. It's also believers being put into the body of Christ to be crucified, dead, buried, and raised with Christ"

If it was preached, we have no record of it, so you'd have to assume. Something I don't do. How long before Paul came along?

You quoted the above and said

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...01#post2469101
PP -"Totally and 100 percent agree with you here."

Now just so we don't get sidetracked....I was stating most believers do not know their positional death to sin is easily made experiential by believing what Christ did to them -killed them- believing they are dead and are to live as those alive from the dead. You then said

PP -"If they haven't heard the gospel then they aren't even in the race yet."

Now show me scripture that shows the first were taught believers being put into the body of Christ to be crucified, dead, buried, and raised with Christ before Paul.

Sure is. You called them saintly sinners, among other things. And that's was just one post.

That's because he knew they knew about "believers being put into the body of Christ to be crucified, dead, buried, and raised with Christ.", having preached to them himself. Same with Tozer. Anyone that preaches freedom from sin by the cross to a group or knows they know, can then tell the group to 'stop sinning' -it's a given it's by the cross. They know the way of escape and either accept it or reject it. But you can't just say 'stop sinning' to those that only have law and do not know how to be free by faith. Those that think Romans 6 is positional only. That think they have two natures and they feed the new nature with scripture, prayer, 'church' in order to overcome the old nature they still have. You can't tell them to just stop sinning (thou shalt not) and expect them to. They don't believe they are dead to sin and the law doesn't work because it's weak through the flesh, so they will sin.


You are totally missing it. I have no interest in particular sin and comparison. I said that already. What I am interested in is principle. So let me give you the opportunity to define what you mean by practicing sin, since you now take the position that believers can sin the same sin and not be practicing the sin. Get it now?

Uh... we aren't even discussing the same thing man. I'm not even sure what you are reading when you read what I post! Like I said... chances were very likely that we are using the same language and yet speaking of totally different doctrine... that is certainly apparent.

The gospel that Peter, James and John preached was the same gospel that Paul preached. The difference... they preached to different audiences by and large... Paul to the Gentile and the other to the Jew even though they all preached to Gentiles and Jews both.

I've already spoken of practicing sin... look back and find it if you want or I'll try and find it tomorrow. Figured since you didn't miss nothing... you certainly saw those post. In a nutshell... a person that told a lie and then after conviction they repent and stop the lie... they are a saint that repented, going to the advocate. The person that told the lie and did nothing... even continued the lie and if like most lies... grew the lie. That is a person practicing sin. Insert various sins and it is the same.

And again... yes, they can stop. Just as easy as telling a lie... one can speak the truth. Just as easy as it is to give in and fornicate... one can zip up and walk away. Just as easy as it is to steal... one can walk away from the thing they covet to steal. Etc. etc. etc.

[ProjectPeter]

Peter,

You should have been surprised to see ES as part of my post, since I did not intend to post any such thing and suprprised myself!

BD

Ha! I know your board personality better than you know it!

[David Taylor]

The gospel that Paul taught is the same gospel that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and all of the other NT writers taught.....

Each one of the expands and explains it differently, in different light and different detail; but it is one gospel; not many. Paul gave us the most light in describing the gospel; (frankly because Paul wrote 75% of the N.T. books....we'd expect him to cover it more)

However, if we listen to Jesus, He tells us that the gospel was taught long before the N.T.; found in the writings of Moses and the other prophets....so it isn't a new thing.

The gospel message that He would be killed and that He would be resurrected is found clearly throughout the Psalms.
The gospel message that His death would be for the people is clearly found throughout Daniel and Isaiah.
The gospel message that He would unite all people in Him in a new covenant in His blood is found throughout Genesis, Daniel, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

So the idea that seems to be coming across that the gospel of Paul is a new thing, or a different thing than what the other NT writers wrote, or that the OT scriptures foretold just isn't true.

Paul expounded on it, gave more details of it, clarified it like never before.....but it was the same single gospel; for there is only one gospel.

[Firstfruits]

The gospel that Paul taught is the same gospel that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and all of the other NT writers taught.....

Each one of the expands and explains it differently, in different light and different detail; but it is one gospel; not many. Paul gave us the most light in describing the gospel; (frankly because Paul wrote 75% of the N.T. books....we'd expect him to cover it more)

However, if we listen to Jesus, He tells us that the gospel was taught long before the N.T.; found in the writings of Moses and the other prophets....so it isn't a new thing.

The gospel message that He would be killed and that He would be resurrected is found clearly throughout the Psalms.
The gospel message that His death would be for the people is clearly found throughout Daniel and Isaiah.
The gospel message that He would unite all people in Him in a new covenant in His blood is found throughout Genesis, Daniel, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

So the idea that seems to be coming across that the gospel of Paul is a new thing, or a different thing than what the other NT writers wrote, or that the OT scriptures foretold just isn't true.

Paul expounded on it, gave more details of it, clarified it like never before.....but it was the same single gospel; for there is only one gospel.

Amen! David Taylor,

Lk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[ProjectPeter]

The gospel that Paul taught is the same gospel that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and all of the other NT writers taught.....

Each one of the expands and explains it differently, in different light and different detail; but it is one gospel; not many. Paul gave us the most light in describing the gospel; (frankly because Paul wrote 75% of the N.T. books....we'd expect him to cover it more)

However, if we listen to Jesus, He tells us that the gospel was taught long before the N.T.; found in the writings of Moses and the other prophets....so it isn't a new thing.

The gospel message that He would be killed and that He would be resurrected is found clearly throughout the Psalms.
The gospel message that His death would be for the people is clearly found throughout Daniel and Isaiah.
The gospel message that He would unite all people in Him in a new covenant in His blood is found throughout Genesis, Daniel, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

So the idea that seems to be coming across that the gospel of Paul is a new thing, or a different thing than what the other NT writers wrote, or that the OT scriptures foretold just isn't true.

Paul expounded on it, gave more details of it, clarified it like never before.....but it was the same single gospel; for there is only one gospel.

Yeah... the Pauline Gospel Only folk are odd but truth be told... there are many that might not be Pauline Letters Only but they are Dang Near Pauline Only. Folks need to be careful with that multi-gospel mess.

[Sirus]

Uh... we aren't even discussing the same thing man. I'm not even sure what you are reading when you read what I post! Like I said... chances were very likely that we are using the same language and yet speaking of totally different doctrine... that is certainly apparent.

Another cop-out......

The gospel that Peter, James and John preached was the same gospel that Paul preached.

Care to show me scripture where they preached it before Paul came?
.....I didn't think so......because you can't.

The difference... they preached to different audiences by and large... Paul to the Gentile and the other to the Jew even though they all preached to Gentiles and Jews both.

Same gospel is for both. This is irrelevant.

In a nutshell... a person that told a lie and then after conviction they repent and stop the lie... they are a saint that repented, going to the advocate. The person that told the lie and did nothing... even continued the lie and if like most lies... grew the lie. That is a person practicing sin. Insert various sins and it is the same.

This is not what you said. You said they must stop doing the sin else it's not repentance and God is not their Father.

And again... yes, they can stop. Just as easy as telling a lie... one can speak the truth. Just as easy as it is to give in and fornicate... one can zip up and walk away. Just as easy as it is to steal... one can walk away from the thing they covet to steal. Etc. etc. etc.

Great, then we can overcome by our own will and the law and don't need the cross! Fantastic! Jesus didn't need to crucify sin that is in the flesh by crucifying the flesh. Gotcha! He did that for kicks! He didn't know what He was talking about when He said the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing.

[Sirus]

The gospel that Paul taught is the same gospel that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and all of the other NT writers taught.....

You will find elements spoken by Jesus in those books, and since Jesus said He had more to tell them but they couldn't bear, but He would send the Holy Ghost to reveal all that is still hidden, I believe He did, but you cannot produce as nearly complete revelation of the gospel or even remotely close, to what we have recorded by Paul. Notice you have provided zero scripture? I know you want to believe what you are saying but you cannot even attempt to prove it.

Each one of the expands and explains it differently, in different light and different detail; but it is one gospel; not many. Paul gave us the most light in describing the gospel; (frankly because Paul wrote 75% of the N.T. books....we'd expect him to cover it more)

Amen!

However, if we listen to Jesus, He tells us that the gospel was taught long before the N.T.; found in the writings of Moses and the other prophets....so it isn't a new thing.

Moses spoke of the Abrahamic covenant by faith by circumcising the heart in the law. The other prophets of course mentioned the suffering Messiah. This is all irrelevant to the discussion. Man has always been saved by faith. That's a given.

The gospel message that He would be killed and that He would be resurrected is found clearly throughout the Psalms.
The gospel message that His death would be for the people is clearly found throughout Daniel and Isaiah.
The gospel message that He would unite all people in Him in a new covenant in His blood is found throughout Genesis, Daniel, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

Yes, but if you had followed the discussion you would know the statement was made by me and agreed by PP that the gospel is much more than just that. Now understanding that, I would love to hear what you have to say? I know you have a working knowledge of the scriptures and post them to prove your points. Didn't above, but you usually do.

So the idea that seems to be coming across that the gospel of Paul is a new thing, or a different thing than what the other NT writers wrote, or that the OT scriptures foretold just isn't true.

I never said any such thing.

[Sirus]

Yeah... the Pauline Gospel Only folk are odd but truth be told... there are many that might not be Pauline Letters Only but they are Dang Near Pauline Only. Folks need to be careful with that multi-gospel mess.

There's only one Gospel of Jesus Christ, revealed over time. Our crucifixion and death with and in Christ to experientially free us from sin was not preached in the beginning of Acts and until Paul came along as far as we know. You'll just have to work that plain and simple fact into your theology.....or reject it. It's not heresy either way. I was making a simple point that you missed. Saved people sin and don't want to because they don't know they way of escape. The law is not the way of escape. They cannot just decide to stop some sins. They do what they do not want to do -they have repented. They serve God with their mind but sin with the flesh, because they do not understand Jesus crucified it for them and all they have to do is believe it and not sin. The fact that you do not understand this means you do things you do not want to do. Now you know. Stop it!

[Diggindeeper]

They cannot just decide to stop some sins. They do what they do not want to do -they have repented. They serve God with their mind but sin with the flesh, because they do not understand Jesus crucified it for them and all they have to do is believe it and not sin. The fact that you do not understand this means you do things you do not want to do. Now you know. Stop it!

So Sirus, it is your duty, and mine, (whichever one of us encounters these people!) to tell them! Teach them! Warn them of the judgement to come!

What good does it do to tell them they will quit 'in time'. Or that Jesus loves you anyway?

It seems to me this is a matter of life and death. I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to NOT tell them. Or warn them.

Even people addicted on drugs can't be helped until they WANT to stop. To stop living the way they are living...if you can call their life living.

Why in the world would I NOT warn them and tell them, "You've got to quit this. You must stop. You know this (or that) is wicked and sinful. Why do you want to go on this way? No one is tying you up and dragging you to make you do _____ or ______. Its up to you to choose life or death. You are supposed to be a Christian. Why...why are you still doing ____ again and again?"

SOMEONE MUST TELL THEM, Sirus! Or the way I see it, if you or I are the ones who encounter these people who say they 'can't' stop doing this or that...if we DON'T warn them, then we would be held accountable.

This has always been the way. Its scriptural. And hey...for over 2,000 years it has been very successful! It still works. I've actually encountered some of these people. Had them in my home. For some, it wasn't easy for them NOT to go back to get more drugs (or whatever), but let me tell you, it works!

I don't understand. Why NOT tell them to stop? Quit? Don't do that? Don't go there again? Do as you ought to and stop sinning?

[ProjectPeter]

Another cop-out......

No... not at all but you may certainly figure that if it helps you get through the day!

Care to show me scripture where they preached it before Paul came?
.....I didn't think so......because you can't.

Uh... Paul presented things differently using Paul's examples etc. In all actuality... we have very little of what any other preached sermon for sermon. Paul had more letters so we have more examples... sort of one of them there no-brainers. Rest assured though... they preached the same gospel.

Same gospel is for both. This is irrelevant.

This is not what you said. You said they must stop doing the sin else it's not repentance and God is not their Father.

Once again there Sirus... while I do appreciate you attributing this to me but I cannot take any such credit. I didn't say it. John did in 1 John 3. Your contention is with John. And yes... they must stop doing the sin else it ain't repentance. Sure enough!

Great, then we can overcome by our own will and the law and don't need the cross! Fantastic! Jesus didn't need to crucify sin that is in the flesh by crucifying the flesh. Gotcha! He did that for kicks! He didn't know what He was talking about when He said the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing.

Uh yeah... there ya go! That's what I'm saying... right.

Jesus told folks... Go and stop sinning. He even told them that BEFORE the cross. Go figure that one out eh?

[ProjectPeter]

I never said any such thing.

Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd there Sirus that I am not the only person that thinks that is pretty much exactly what you said? Novel concept perhaps... but maybe, just maybe, you wrote what you were thinking poorly or something? Maybe you can tell us exactly what you meant if that isn't what you said and more than one person thinks that is what you said? Call it a hunch man... but I'm thinking either you meant that or you mispoke... but dang sure seems to be what you said.

[ProjectPeter]

There's only one Gospel of Jesus Christ, revealed over time. Our crucifixion and death with and in Christ to experientially free us from sin was not preached in the beginning of Acts and until Paul came along as far as we know.

I know I asked you to explain this "experientially free us from sin" and if you did I couldn't find it... could you please explain what that means to you?

You'll just have to work that plain and simple fact into your theology.....or reject it. It's not heresy either way. I was making a simple point that you missed. Saved people sin and don't want to because they don't know they way of escape.

What then are they saved from? You are describing someone that isn't free from sin but in fact slaves to sin. That doesn't describe someone born again.

The law is not the way of escape.

The law of Moses never did provide a way of escape. That isn't what it was written for. If one is looking to the Law... they are no where near grace and if they were ever in grace and now look to the law of Moses to save them... they have fallen from grace.

They cannot just decide to stop some sins. They do what they do not want to do -they have repented. They serve God with their mind but sin with the flesh, because they do not understand Jesus crucified it for them and all they have to do is believe it and not sin. The fact that you do not understand this means you do things you do not want to do. Now you know. Stop it!

Uh... Romans 7 eh? Nah. Romans 7 is when they were under the law... not saved. Paul spoke of being in bondage to sin. One saved is NOT in bondage to sin but has been set free by Christ and whom the Son set free... sure enough free indeed.

[ProjectPeter]

So Sirus, it is your duty, and mine, (whichever one of us encounters these people!) to tell them! Teach them! Warn them of the judgement to come!

What good does it do to tell them they will quit 'in time'. Or that Jesus loves you anyway?

It seems to me this is a matter of life and death. I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to NOT tell them. Or warn them.

Even people addicted on drugs can't be helped until they WANT to stop. To stop living the way they are living...if you can call their life living.

Why in the world would I NOT warn them and tell them, "You've got to quit this. You must stop. You know this (or that) is wicked and sinful. Why do you want to go on this way? No one is tying you up and dragging you to make you do _____ or ______. Its up to you to choose life or death. You are supposed to be a Christian. Why...why are you still doing ____ again and again?"

SOMEONE MUST TELL THEM, Sirus! Or the way I see it, if you or I are the ones who encounter these people who say they 'can't' stop doing this or that...if we DON'T warn them, then we would be held accountable.

This has always been the way. Its scriptural. And hey...for over 2,000 years it has been very successful! It still works. I've actually encountered some of these people. Had them in my home. For some, it wasn't easy for them NOT to go back to get more drugs (or whatever), but let me tell you, it works!

I don't understand. Why NOT tell them to stop? Quit? Don't do that? Don't go there again? Do as you ought to and stop sinning?

Because Judy... regardless of the fact that Scripture tells folks that very thing... folks don't want to stop their sin. They love it in many cases. They say they hate it... call it horrible... then run right back to it like a stallion after a mare in heat. The children of Israel are our example in that foolishness... that is why we have all those Scripture telling of their foolishness. The thinking there... we can read of their foolishness and not do the same foolishness and get into the same foolish trouble they did. But in the end... folks rested in the fact that they were Israelites therefore in like flint regardless. Today... folks say a prayer and believe and think they are in like flint regardless. Nothing new under the sun really... the church today is in the same sorry state as Israel was in when Christ came the first time. This time when He comes... judgment.