Overcoming Sin

[VerticalReality]

There have been a lot of threads lately instructing Christians that they shouldn't sin. This is basically a no-brainer. Every Christian knows that they should not sin. Every Christian knows that sin is bad. Sure, some Christians may have a deeper revelation of that than others, but generally all Christians know that sinning is something they should not be doing.

What hasn't been discussed at any great length is how a Christian can overcome sin. Most Christians would say something like, "You overcome sin by walking in the Spirit." Okay, how do you do that? Additionally, just because you stop sinning doesn't mean you are walking in the Spirit. There have been many unbelievers who have stopped committing a particular sin such as cheating on their spouse or getting drunk who didn't do so by walking in the Spirit.

Most Christians would then say, "Well, you have to believe." Okay, believe what? "You have to be obedient." Okay, how? Did Paul not desire to be obedient in Romans 7 when he stated his will was to obey God even though he couldn't?

This is a typical pattern of the church today. You see a lot of folks stating the obvious. Telling people they shouldn't sin is not the answer to the problem. Telling someone in bondage that they shouldn't be in bondage is not what will get them out of it. You have to tell them how the chains can be broken. The way to break those chains is not by saying, "Hey, you shouldn't be in those chains!"

Imagine a man standing over another who is bound by shackles and chains only to say, "You know, you shouldn't be like that." Well, duh! Saying something like that doesn't do anyone any good. You have to tell a person how they can be free! If you can't set the captive free you shouldn't make things worse by condemning them for being that way.

The church is supposed to bring the keys to freedom, not add more weight that will smother those in captivity. Condemning someone who already doesn't want to be in captivity is only going to bring more discouragement and defeat. A person in such a situation will only give up and feel as though there is no hope for them. This IS NOT what Jesus did, and it IS NOT what He commanded His disciples to do.

So, in this thread let us discuss the keys to freedom. Let's actually discuss something that will do someone good instead of making them feel worse about themselves.

[RogerW]

There have been a lot of threads lately instructing Christians that they shouldn't sin. This is basically a no-brainer. Every Christian knows that they should not sin. Every Christian knows that sin is bad. Sure, some Christians may have a deeper revelation of that than others, but generally all Christians know that sinning is something they should not be doing.

What hasn't been discussed at any great length is how a Christian can overcome sin. Most Christians would say something like, "You overcome sin by walking in the Spirit." Okay, how do you do that? Additionally, just because you stop sinning doesn't mean you are walking in the Spirit. There have been many unbelievers who have stopped committing a particular sin such as cheating on their spouse or getting drunk who didn't do so by walking in the Spirit.

Most Christians would then say, "Well, you have to believe." Okay, believe what? "You have to be obedient." Okay, how? Did Paul not desire to be obedient in Romans 7 when he stated his will was to obey God even though he couldn't?

This is a typical pattern of the church today. You see a lot of folks stating the obvious. Telling people they shouldn't sin is not the answer to the problem. Telling someone in bondage that they shouldn't be in bondage is not what will get them out of it. You have to tell them how the chains can be broken. The way to break those chains is not by saying, "Hey, you shouldn't be in those chains!"

Imagine a man standing over another who is bound by shackles and chains only to say, "You know, you shouldn't be like that." Well, duh! Saying something like that doesn't do anyone any good. You have to tell a person how they can be free! If you can't set the captive free you shouldn't make things worse by condemning them for being that way.

The church is supposed to bring the keys to freedom, not add more weight that will smother those in captivity. Condemning someone who already doesn't want to be in captivity is only going to bring more discouragement and defeat. A person in such a situation will only give up and feel as though there is no hope for them. This IS NOT what Jesus did, and it IS NOT what He commanded His disciples to do.

So, in this thread let us discuss the keys to freedom. Let's actually discuss something that will do someone good instead of making them feel worse about themselves.

Col 3:2..."Set you affection [heart/mind] on things above." Unless our hearts are set on the things of Christ, they will not be sought in the proper manner. "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life" (Pro 4:23). Do not set your mind, thoughts and desires on the things of this world (Ro 8:5). Food and clothing, care of families, health and necessities of life are to be sought after and provided for, but not with anxiety and distress, as if these were our chief end or the source of our chief happiness (Mt 6:28-34). All the things of this earth shall fade away, "but he that doeth the will of God abides forever" (1Jo 2:15-17).

[Brother Mark]

Col 3:2..."Set you affection [heart/mind] on things above." Unless our hearts are set on the things of Christ, they will not be sought in the proper manner. "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life" (Pro 4:23). Do not set your mind, thoughts and desires on the things of this world (Ro 8:5). Food and clothing, care of families, health and necessities of life are to be sought after and provided for, but not with anxiety and distress, as if these were our chief end or the source of our chief happiness (Mt 6:28-34). All the things of this earth shall fade away, "but he that doeth the will of God abides forever" (1Jo 2:15-17).

These are excellent verses! For it is from the heart that sin comes from. So the issue is and always will be a matter of the heart. The question then becomes, how does one have his heart changed and purified?

[LadyMeli]

The question then becomes, how does one have his heart changed and purified?

Slowly and in time the outter man will show evidence of the change that has taken place inside the man? That happens with the watering of the Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide and teach you?

I placed question marks because it's just a guess at it with my LIMITED knowledge.

[VerticalReality]

These are excellent verses! For it is from the heart that sin comes from. So the issue is and always will be a matter of the heart. The question then becomes, how does one have his heart changed and purified?

What about one such as Paul in Romans 7 who hated his sin? I wouldn't say that sin is coming from his heart when he professes hatred rather than love for it. To say that sin comes from a person's heart is the same as saying the person sins because they love it and it is their desire to do it. Paul makes it clear in Romans 7 that he doesn't love his sin and his desire is to not commit it.

[Brother Mark]

What about one such as Paul in Romans 7 who hated his sin? I wouldn't say that sin is coming from his heart when he professes hatred rather than love for it. To say that sin comes from a person's heart is the same as saying the person sins because they love it and it is their desire to do it. Paul makes it clear in Romans 7 that he doesn't love his sin and his desire is to not commit it.

I would. Here's why...

Matt 15:19-20
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
NASU

I think Paul was writing from his spirit and his heart. With his mind and spirit and even his heart, he hated his sin. But the sin was in his flesh and in his heart (Matt 15:19-20). Thus, he was defiled. Thing is, it was also in his heart to be free because Jesus also said "From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks". So Paul's heart was in torment over it's division. However, Romans 8 is the answer to Romans 7 is it not?

I think we can find in the scriptures the answer to every sin. But I don't think we can find a formula that fits every body. Though there are things in general that make a difference and are very helpful.

[VerticalReality]

I would. Here's why...

Matt 15:19-20
19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
NASU

I think Paul was writing from his spirit and his heart. With his mind and spirit and even his heart, he hated his sin. But the sin was in his flesh and in his heart (Matt 15:19-20). Thus, he was defiled. Thing is, it was also in his heart to be free because Jesus also said "From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks". So Paul's heart was in torment over it's division. However, Romans 8 is the answer to Romans 7 is it not?

I think we can find in the scriptures the answer to every sin. But I don't think we can find a formula that fits every body. Though there are things in general that make a difference and are very helpful.

I could see why you would believe that; however, I would contend that Matthew 15 is not being spoken to those who have been given a new heart and a new spirit. Jesus was addressing the scribes and Pharisees and their defiled religious assertions made toward His disciples.

How can a person who has been given a new heart from God have sin flowing from it?

[Brother Mark]

I could see why you would believe that; however, I would contend that Matthew 15 is not being spoken to those who have been given a new heart and a new spirit. Jesus was addressing the scribes and Pharisees and their defiled religious assertions made toward His disciples.

How can a person who has been given a new heart from God have sin flowing from it?

Because hearts can be divided. James addresses these issues and says "it should not be so". Let me ask it in another way...

Jesus says from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Where does the sin come from when a believer sins with his mouth?

[VerticalReality]

Because hearts can be divided. James addresses these issues and says "it should not be so". Let me ask it in another way...

Jesus says from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Where does the sin come from when a believer sins with his mouth?

How can a new heart be divided? The sin comes from the flesh. If the sin comes from the heart then why does a believer hate it? The flesh will react a lot of ways. However, Paul declares that a person can act out in the flesh something that they absolutely despise. I have experienced this myself as well. To say that it came from my heart would be the same as to say I loved it. This was not the case. I absolutely hated it, and immediately on these occasions I am flooded with sorrow over my actions. This is not the result of someone who loves sin or has a heart that produces sin.

The very reason we have this sort of reaction is because our heart is NOT in it.

[Brother Mark]

How can a new heart be divided? The sin comes from the flesh. If the sin comes from the heart then why does a believer hate it? The flesh will react a lot of ways. However, Paul declares that a person can act out in the flesh something that they absolutely despise. I have experienced this myself as well. To say that it came from my heart would be the same as to say I loved it. This was not the case. I absolutely hated it, and immediately on these occasions I am flooded with sorrow over my actions. This is not the result of someone who loves sin or has a heart that produces sin.

The very reason we have this sort of reaction is because our heart is NOT in it.

I understand and I would agree that the new born heart does not like sin. But even so, didn't Jesus say that from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks? If we sin with our lips, have we not sinned with our heart?

Why so many warnings about guarding our heart in scripture?

Can there be nothing in the heart that the spirit hates? I think so!

When Jesus spoke about what defiled a man, he was speaking to both his disciples and the pharisees. Why would we think his words only apply to the pharisees?

Matt 5:28-29
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
NASU

Where did Jesus say the sin occured when dealing with lust?

[VerticalReality]

I understand and I would agree that the new born heart does not like sin. But even so, didn't Jesus say that from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks? If we sin with our lips, have we not sinned with our heart?

No, I do not believe that passage means what you are taking away from it. For example, a lot of married couples say things in anger that they do not mean. They usually do this because their flesh has been confronted in a manner that the flesh doesn't like. You cannot in most cases automatically say that what came from the spouse's mouth is what is in their heart. In fact, for a believer with a new heart they would immediately feel horrible for what they said. The reason they feel horrible about it is because it was not something from their heart. In fact, what is in their heart is love for that other person and for God, which is why they feel so terrible in the first place. However, for the unbeliever many times they take pleasure in hurting the other because that is what is in their heart to do. I remember feeling this many times when I was unsaved. I would say things to people simply because I knew it would make them feel bad. I wanted to make them feel that way. I couldn't say the same today. To do something like that to another would eat me up inside. The reason is because I have been given a new heart, and my reaction to sin is no longer the same as it used to be.

Additionally, in the scriptures you are referring to Jesus is addressing the "brood of vipers" and the "good man" versus the "evil man."

Why so many warnings about guarding our heart in scripture?

In what context are you referring to?

Can there be nothing in the heart that the spirit hates? I think so!

Love and hate comes from our heart. There is a reason God does a work in our heart and gives us a new one.

What scriptures are you referring to that says a person's heart can be divided? What scriptures state that a person can have both sin and purity in the same heart?

[VerticalReality]

Another point as well . . .

Our will does not reside in our spirit. Our will resides in the soulish realm. Paul very clearly declares in Romans 7 that his will was to obey God. However, he did not find the ability to do it. He also says that he has a hatred for what he is doing. He is not speaking of only his spirit having a hatred for what he is doing. He is not just speaking of his spirit willing not to sin.

He is speaking of the soulish realm. In his soul, which is the mind, will and emotions, he does not desire to sin.

[Brother Mark]

No, I do not believe that passage means what you are taking away from it. For example, a lot of married couples say things in anger that they do not mean.

Yet, anger came out the mouth. Why? Because anger was in the heart. For the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart. At least that's the way I see it. Whatever is in the heart, will come out the mouth and reveal the heart.

Instead of addressing a whole slew of questions, I'll go back to the sermon on the mount again and then go to the question in a later post. Where did Jesus say the sin of lust occurred?

Matt 5:28
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
NASU

And he clarified this by saying "everyone".

[VerticalReality]

Yet, anger came out the mouth. Why? Because anger was in the heart. For the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart. At least that's the way I see it. Whatever is in the heart, will come out the mouth and reveal the heart.

Instead of addressing a whole slew of questions, I'll go back to the sermon on the mount again and then go to the question in a later post. Where did Jesus say the sin of lust occurred?

Matt 5:28
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
NASU

And he clarified this by saying "everyone".

Okay, so how will someone with a new heart given by God desire to be with other women? I can see how someone's flesh will desire to be with other women, but how could a heart from God lust after this woman? What Jesus is pointing out in the sermon on the mount is the need for a new heart.

[Brother Mark]

Okay, so how will someone with a new heart given by God desire to be with other women? I can see how someone's flesh will desire to be with other women, but how could a heart from God lust after this woman? What Jesus is pointing out in the sermon on the mount is the need for a new heart.

Peter sinned as did Paul. Yet both were new creatures. I see no paradox with new creatures committing sin.

Are there any scriptures that say sin doesn't come from the heart? After David sinned (who I think had a new heart too as did Saul) the still sinned. And then David prayed and asked God to create in him a clean heart. I think our heart needs to be guarded for for from it flows good and evil.

Anyway, we are off topic. I will be willing to let you have the last word on it then move on to how to deal with sin.