Overcoming Sin

[ProjectPeter]

I've claimed no such thing, in fact what I have said is the opposite. I noticed your Sig -A.W. Tozer. Know what else he said?
The Old Cross and the New -A. W. Tozer, Man, the Dwelling Place of God, 1966
There in it's context. He doesn't say just stop sinning here. Would you say the same to him? I think not!

Sure I would but wouldn't have to. Go to sermonindex.org and download a mess of his sermons as well as Leonard Ravenhill who sat under and was mentored by Tozer. You can hear them say it in their own words... they say it often enough. Both were proponents of the simplicity of knock it off. Rest assured... I've listened to countless hours of both of them in the last several years. Just stop was pretty well understood once upon a time.

[ProjectPeter]

VR,

Great stuff in your OP! Loved it, and couldn't agree more.

I personally do like to refer to 1 John 1 and the concept of walking in the light (essentially the same as walking in the Spirit, I think). But I think there are some helpful things there:

1st, walking in the light is not sinless living. That is not possible. When the Spirit reveals sin to us, our responsibility is simply to acknowledge it. That is what confession is.

2nd, when we confess sins brought to our attention, we are restored into fellowship with God. Unconfessed sin does not affect our final destiny, but it does break our fellowship with the Lord... if we refuse to acknowledge it. 1 John 1:9 says that when we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us "the" sins (in the Greek) and to cleanse us from the effect of all sin in our lives... even those not confessed.

But I think a key here is having a proper understanding of the gospel... that Christ paid the penalty for all of our sin on the cross. Hence, confession is needed only to restore us into a close walk with God. Those who think that unconfessed sin will send us to hell can never walk in close fellowship with our Lord. Those who think that if we sin long enough or serious enough that we're no longer saved or no longer a child of God can never rest in the Lord. So that is the place to start. Eternal security. Error in this area is crucial, as they can have no peace or assurance of their salvation. Without a solid assurance that God loves us unconditionally, how can we walk closely with our Lord?

BD

Oh... I don't know! Perhaps like the patriarchs of Scripture. Men who loved the Lord and walked closely with Him in fear and trembling? I know that certainly seems an odd thing now days... but those old boys and girls were our example according to Scripture. We're cool with the sweetness of the Lord but we do forget that yes... He is insanely kind... but also insanely wrathful. For those that continue in His kindness... most wonderful. For those that don't... most bad.

[Sirus]

Sure I would but wouldn't have to. Go to sermonindex.org and download a mess of his sermons as well as Leonard Ravenhill who sat under and was mentored by Tozer. You can hear them say it in their own words... they say it often enough. Both were proponents of the simplicity of knock it off. Rest assured... I've listened to countless hours of both of them in the last several years. Just stop was pretty well understood once upon a time.

Tozer had a clear understand of the gospel. Too bad you misrepresent him.

[ProjectPeter]

Ha! Most Reformed folk would be amazed to realize how different he was. Much like Ravenhill... folks couldn't put him in a doctrinal box very easily. Rest yourself assured... I am not misrepresenting him at all. Tozer was very tough on sin and very practical too. He believed you could stop sinning. He was eternal security and too bad for that... but hey... still enjoy him and he preached a very good obedience message and he was a stickler for telling folks to knock it off in regard to sin. I do enjoy listening to him. Wished there were more sermons of his available to hear.

If you're Reformed and one of the guys that just love disagreeing with me for the sake of I'm not Reformed therefore I am wrong... then don't be so quick to think I am wrong about Tozer. He would cause many of the Reformed folks head to spin today if they knew much about him. That was one of the things I found fascinating about the man. One of the most quotable of the old dead guys... his one liners were fabulous.

[Sirus]

Um... and once again... the discussion has long ventured deeper than the original post and into other areas as well as the original post.

Just because you have posted OT doesn't mean the discussion has ventured there. Especially when you yourself repeatedly say we are not talking about unbelievers. Such contradiction.

Wouldn't think it very much repenting if it is repeated. Not much of a change of mind if one says... I change my mind then change it back again and again and again. Safe to call that.,,, practicing sin.

As I suspected you do not hold a biblical understanding of repentance. First you wrongly associated it with action, then properly recognize it is merely a change of mind. Your confusion in a most basic doctrine continues to cloud your post with fallacy.

You said

"The person that sins and quickly repents of that sin... that is a person that has clearly overcome sin."

So merely changing your mind about a sin is now the definition of overcoming? Tell that to those the thread is about, that do what they don't want to do. They know they have not overcome after they do what they don't want to.

These are not practicing sin. It's not their lifestyle and what they are known for. They are believers doing the best they can with what they know. You condemn them because like the vast majority of christians they've never heard the gospel. They've heard the perverted partial watered down gospel from the apostate leavened mustard seed into a great devil infested tree church.

If we know the gospel and are honest with our sin and need for the cross to overcome our sin because knock it off is not enough for anyone and never has been, we'd have compassion instead of condemnation and tell them the unadulterated gospel.

No, that isn't what you are doing but hey... do as you would do... your call. And one who practices sin practices sin. Like I said before... it don't matter a whit what I do... you do... or the guy down the street does. On judgment day you aren't going to say "But God... so and so did it so I did too!" That ain't going to fly. Scripture says what it says... no need contending with me over what it says... contend with John. He wrote it.

1 John 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

That's nice. The old -you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with scripture. That's not going to work here. Your weak cop-outs are growing old.

You didn't answer the question. I'll post it again for you. You admitted you still sin, then said in another post
"One having a problem overcoming a sin... they are practicing it hence the need to overcome it."
So I said
"Really? So, you never sin the same sin? Knowing you shouldn't? Then by your definition aren't you practicing sin?"
Christians should not be afraid to look in the mirror. I didn't ask what sin and I am not comparing anyone to another. I'm comparing your own contradictory statements with each other. Unless of course you never sin the same sin. Is that the case?

[Sirus]

Ha! Most Reformed folk would be amazed to realize how different he was. Much like Ravenhill... folks couldn't put him in a doctrinal box very easily.

Same is true for me

Tozer was very tough on sin and very practical too. He believed you could stop sinning.

So do I

If you're Reformed and one of the guys that just love disagreeing with me for the sake of I'm not Reformed therefore I am wrong... then don't be so quick to think I am wrong about Tozer.

I can't stand reformed doctrine.

He would cause many of the Reformed folks head to spin today

Sounds familiar.

That was one of the things I found fascinating about the man. One of the most quotable of the old dead guys... his one liners were fabulous.

I like it too.

Like I said in a PM. You make a lot of assumptions. You got me all wrong brother.

[VerticalReality]

Uh... I have posted many Scripture that tells us how to walk in the Spirit and how to not walk in the flesh. If walking in sexual immorality is walking in the flesh... don't walk in sexual immorality and the flesh. If lying, idolatry, gossip, etc... are all walking in the flesh... don't do it. Then you ain't walking in the flesh. Again... that passage in Galatians makes it clear the distinction between walking in the flesh and the Spirit. As to it being a byproduct... that's not what it is at all. You are to pursue love... the Spirit don't love through you. You are to pursue righteousness... the Spirit doesn't make you righteous. Etc.

This is where you are missing it. Even unbelievers can live without committing sexual immorality. I know countless husbands who do not commit adultery on their wives, and yet they aren't even Christians. They do not refrain from this sin because they are "walking in the Spirit." So, walking in the Spirit must mean something different than just not sinning. If you refrain from committing sexual immorality, it does not mean you are walking in the Spirit.

[VerticalReality]

Oh... I don't know! Perhaps like the patriarchs of Scripture. Men who loved the Lord and walked closely with Him in fear and trembling? I know that certainly seems an odd thing now days... but those old boys and girls were our example according to Scripture. We're cool with the sweetness of the Lord but we do forget that yes... He is insanely kind... but also insanely wrathful. For those that continue in His kindness... most wonderful. For those that don't... most bad.

Who is now experiencing the wrath of God? His children? You seem to hold to a view of God as one under law waiting to be smited for sinning.

[ProjectPeter]

Just because you have posted OT doesn't mean the discussion has ventured there. Especially when you yourself repeatedly say we are not talking about unbelievers. Such contradiction.

Uh... we aren't talking about unbelievers. Unbelievers can't overcome sin... that ain't ever happening. Again... your hang up will be that you are eternal security. I am not. THere is no contradiction other than perhaps what you have made up in your own mind.

As I suspected you do not hold a biblical understanding of repentance. First you wrongly associated it with action, then properly recognize it is merely a change of mind. Your confusion in a most basic doctrine continues to cloud your post with fallacy.

Um... yeah right! Let's be clear... I didn't even attempt to lay out anything major on repentance nor did I try to teach you what it meant. There was no need to go too far because you've got all the answers already as you've made clear. Answering you would have been like feeding a crocodile with your fingers and then acting shocked when you drew back a stub.

You said

"The person that sins and quickly repents of that sin... that is a person that has clearly overcome sin."

So merely changing your mind about a sin is now the definition of overcoming? Tell that to those the thread is about, that do what they don't want to do. They know they have not overcome after they do what they don't want to.

These are not practicing sin. It's not their lifestyle and what they are known for. They are believers doing the best they can with what they know. You condemn them because like the vast majority of christians they've never heard the gospel. They've heard the perverted partial watered down gospel from the apostate leavened mustard seed into a great devil infested tree church.

News flash for you hoss. If they haven't heard the gospel then they aren't even in the race yet. Not born again... not saved... still in sin... not set free... etc. Pick whichever term fancies ya!

If we know the gospel and are honest with our sin and need for the cross to overcome our sin because knock it off is not enough for anyone and never has been, we'd have compassion instead of condemnation and tell them the unadulterated gospel.

Worked for Jesus... worked for the other apostles. Not sure why you think it don't and won't and can't work today.

That's nice. The old -you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with scripture. That's not going to work here. Your weak cop-outs are growing old.

Not as old as your arrogant attitude but hey... As to you arguing with Scripture... fuss all you want while calling it a cop-out. If Scripture says it and you disagree with it... you're argument is with Scripture... not me.

You didn't answer the question. I'll post it again for you. You admitted you still sin, then said in another post
"One having a problem overcoming a sin... they are practicing it hence the need to overcome it."
So I said
"Really? So, you never sin the same sin? Knowing you shouldn't? Then by your definition aren't you practicing sin?"
Christians should not be afraid to look in the mirror. I didn't ask what sin and I am not comparing anyone to another. I'm comparing your own contradictory statements with each other. Unless of course you never sin the same sin. Is that the case?

And again... it doesn't matter what I, the board owner, or every person that is reading this thread does in regard to sinning or not sinning. Come judgment day it is going to be you standing before God answering for you. What anyone else did or didn't do isn't going to help you in even the least little bit. I don't have to answer that question because in regard to the truth... it don't matter. Truth is truth no matter how you or I live or don't live it eh? If you're searching for the truth then there it is... deal with it. If you are searching for information about me... then read my Biography if I ever write one or go through the many thousands and thousands of post that I have written on this forum.

[ProjectPeter]

Same is true for me

So do I

I can't stand reformed doctrine.

Sounds familiar.

I like it too.

Like I said in a PM. You make a lot of assumptions. You got me all wrong brother.

I don't have you all wrong... I am figuring you out. Vast difference. The way I figure it... you are either a greasy gracer or a follower of Swaggart's teaching but then this is the Internet... New stuff comes up all over the place now days so you might be something totally different. Time will tell.

[ProjectPeter]

This is where you are missing it. Even unbelievers can live without committing sexual immorality. I know countless husbands who do not commit adultery on their wives, and yet they aren't even Christians. They do not refrain from this sin because they are "walking in the Spirit." So, walking in the Spirit must mean something different than just not sinning. If you refrain from committing sexual immorality, it does not mean you are walking in the Spirit.

You may know men that don't physically commit adultery by having physical sex with another woman... but that is as far as you can know unless they tell you otherwise or you catch them otherwise. Adultery is committed in many forms... physical acts of sex is not required. Geeze... you sound like you are buying into the same logic that the Jews had when Christ came on the scene and explained to them that they were in fact in pretty bad shape. Perhaps you might take a gander at Romans 2 and get things back into reality.

ANd regardless... if they aren't having sex or thinking sex or are sexually as pure as the driven snow... and yet they lie or perhaps have hatred in their heart or maybe steal... gossip... backbite... ____________ (list is pretty extensive) then they are going to hell as if not being a believer is enough.

Not sure how it is that you guys are leaning towards this idea that unbelievers can live sin free lives and all... not sure what part of the Bible you're coming up with that stuff!

[ProjectPeter]

Who is now experiencing the wrath of God? His children? You seem to hold to a view of God as one under law waiting to be smited for sinning.

God is going to judge His own house first VR. Folks need to quickly wake up to that fact because it is coming. He'll do that before He judges the world. His "children" will see it no doubt. Many think they are His children and in truth... they aren't even close. God didn't park His wrath at the cross to be never seen again.

[VerticalReality]

You may know men that don't physically commit adultery by having physical sex with another woman... but that is as far as you can know unless they tell you otherwise or you catch them otherwise. Adultery is committed in many forms... physical acts of sex is not required. Geeze... you sound like you are buying into the same logic that the Jews had when Christ came on the scene and explained to them that they were in fact in pretty bad shape. Perhaps you might take a gander at Romans 2 and get things back into reality.

ANd regardless... if they aren't having sex or thinking sex or are sexually as pure as the driven snow... and yet they lie or perhaps have hatred in their heart or maybe steal... gossip... backbite... ____________ (list is pretty extensive) then they are going to hell as if not being a believer is enough.

Not sure how it is that you guys are leaning towards this idea that unbelievers can live sin free lives and all... not sure what part of the Bible you're coming up with that stuff!

I understand iniquity doesn't always take on physical forms. However, you specifically referenced Galatians 5:19-21, and these verses are very much speaking of many various physical manifestations of the flesh. Paul refers to it as the "works of the flesh" for a purpose. He is referencing those who physically act out these things. My point is that just because someone doesn't do those things does not mean they are walking in the Spirit.

Additionally, you seem to be leaving out the fact that in order to produce fruit something has to happen first. A farmer doesn't immediately plant a seed and then a crop flows in. Producing the fruit of the Spirit is a result of first walking in the Spirit. So, how does someone walk in the Spirit?

[VerticalReality]

God is going to judge His own house first VR. Folks need to quickly wake up to that fact because it is coming. He'll do that before He judges the world. His "children" will see it no doubt. Many think they are His children and in truth... they aren't even close. God didn't park His wrath at the cross to be never seen again.

A judgment is certainly going to take place, that is for sure. However, I wanted to clarify exactly what you meant. I do not believe God is pouring out wrath on His children right now. Chastening? Sure. However, those are two different things. The wrath of God is abiding on those who do not believe on Jesus.

That being said, when it comes to God's judgment at the time of His coming, what point of perfection should we have attained before we can be assured He will allow us to enter?

[DeafPosttrib]

I agree with ProjectPeter saying that God shall first judge upon the Church as it according to 1 Peter 4:17. My understanding of 1 Peter 4:17 is not always speaking of the Christians shall be first judge at the "Judgment Seat of Christ" at the rapture prior Tribulation begins. Rather it speaking of Christians shall be first judgment by God, by send unbelievers to persecution against Christians. Late Corrie Ten Boom warned, America is the last country to face coming persecution. She was right. America has been freedom and safety for nearly 200 years, without face any persecution. Christians in America has been apostasy and compromising with the world getting worst. I believe that YHWH is getting fed up with believers. YHWH knows when the right time to come. YHWH shall punish saints, by send unbeievers to persecution against saints for a little moment(possibly 3 1/2 years). Then next, YHWH will pour His wrath upon unbelievers at the very end of the age follow Second Advent.