The Muslim view of Jesus

[Sojourner55]

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If one believes that the above passage defines a foundational truth upon which Christianity is built, then the following verses from the Koran can only be viewed as repudiating the Biblical basis for the Christian faith:

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

He [God] begetteth not, nor is He begotten; (Surah 112.3)

In this regard, I have two questions for my more learned spiritual siblings here:

1. Does the intent of these words not seem to be a clear denial that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh-- the very lie that the apostle John declared would identify the spirit of antichrist? (Yes, I know all false religions deny the full deity of Jesus, but how many include a specific declaration of that denial in their sacred writ).

2. I'm a little confused by the Muslim beliefs concerning Jesus. They acknowledge that His birth occurred under obviously supernatural circumstances--conceived by a virgin, and not the offspring of a mortal, earthly father.

Yet, they don't believe his birth was supernatural enough to warrant His being begotten by God. Anyone have a better understanding of what the specific beliefs are in that regard?

[decrumpit]

1. Does the intent of these words not seem to be a clear denial that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh-- the very lie that the apostle John declared would identify the spirit of antichrist? (Yes, I know all false religions deny the full deity of Jesus, but how many include a specific declaration of that denial in their sacred writ).

Are you referring to II John 1:7? I believe that the passage is directed more against Gnosticism than Islam, seeing as though certain cults of this time believed that Jesus only came as spirit, not as flesh.

2. I'm a little confused by the Muslim beliefs concerning Jesus. They acknowledge that His birth occurred under obviously supernatural circumstances--conceived by a virgin, and not the offspring of a mortal, earthly father.

Yet, they don't believe his birth was supernatural enough to warrant His being begotten by God. Anyone have a better understanding of what the specific beliefs are in that regard?

Islam believes in a single god known as "Allah" that is in line with some aspects of the Jewish and Christian God. Allah is even the word for God in Arabic - it is a Christian word and Islam is deliberately crafted to present itself as the fulfillment of both Judaism and Christianity.

Mohammed had significant exposure to certain Christian doctrines. Although the Christianity of 7th century Arabia was heavily influenced by pagan superstition, he had a general idea of what the Gospels (Injeel in Arabic) and the books of Moses (Tawrah in Arabic) contained.

According to Islam, God sends prophets (Anbia'a) and messengers (rusul) to people to proclaim the message of Islam, namely that God is one, angels, jinn, demons, salvation by works, prayer, etc. The first of these was Adam, then Moses, David, some others, and Jesus. All of these men preached Islam. Mohammed was the final messenger who came to dictate the Quran to people so that God's word might come to humanity.

Jesus was a prophet who revealed the gospels, but later editors and Paul especially distorted his message from "true Islam" to a false religion and claimed that Jesus himself was God. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet worthy of respect who preached true Islam, and his words were distorted by Christians.

You are correct, Muslims believe that he was born to Mary who was a virgin. The presence of this and other "Christian" doctrines leads some scholars to suggest that Mohammed was trying deliberately to make his religion more appealing to Christians and Jews, as well as pagans. I believe this to be true.

[Amos_with_goats]

I have had the same thought. I once saw a bumper sticker that quoted the verse from the koran you cited. It would seem to be a specific statement intended to refute the very Truth of Life directly... as we were told to look for.

Declarative statements to say a thing are NOT so would seem uncalled for without a purpose. For instance, if I randomly said 'the sky is not red' it would seem strange on it's own. It would appear only to make sense if used to counter (anti) an opposing view.

[andrew_no_one]

[COLOR=Blue][I]
1. Does the intent of these words not seem to be a clear denial that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh-- the very lie that the apostle John declared would identify the spirit of antichrist? (Yes, I know all false religions deny the full deity of Jesus, but how many include a specific declaration of that denial in their sacred writ).

You are correct in saying that mentioned passage (Surah 17:111) is a denial of our Lord Jesus.

[Sojourner55]

Are you referring to II John 1:7? I believe that the passage is directed more against Gnosticism than Islam, seeing as though certain cults of this time believed that Jesus only came as spirit, not as flesh.

You're right, of course. I guess I was thinking more in terms of the denial that Jesus was not the fulfillment of God being manifest in the flesh then the Docetism of the Gnostics. In other words, if Jesus was not the Anointed One, that leaves the door open for the masqueraders, which Jesus warned would arise.

Actually, I don't think it's a coincidence that all major religions have the belief in a great end time leader who will lead the world into a utopian age of peace and enlightenment--perhaps crafted in by the same malevolent manipulator. Sounds like a stage being set to me.

Mohammed was the final messenger who came to dictate the Quran to people so that God's word might come to humanity.

What about the Twelfth Imam of the Twelvers? (Isn't Ahmadinejad hoping to hasten the coming of this messianic figure by attacking Israel, and instigating a global conflagration)? Are the Twelvers just a fringe cult?

You are correct, Muslims believe that he was born to Mary who was a virgin. The presence of this and other "Christian" doctrines leads some scholars to suggest that Mohammed was trying deliberately to make his religion more appealing to Christians and Jews, as well as pagans. I believe this to be true.

Makes sense to me. Weaving in just enough truth to make a lie believable. Typical of the master deceiver.

Very enlightening, decrumpit. Thank you.

[Sojourner55]

I have had the same thought. I once saw a bumper sticker that quoted the verse from the koran you cited. It would seem to be a specific statement intended to refute the very Truth of Life directly... as we were told to look for.

Declarative statements to say a thing are NOT so would seem uncalled for without a purpose. For instance, if I randomly said 'the sky is not red' it would seem strange on it's own. It would appear only to make sense if used to counter (anti) an opposing view.

I agree. The contradictory wording seems too specific be a coincidence. It's sad that so many deceived human beings will follow Satan straight into the lake of fire because they chose to believe his lies rather than God's truth--especially since that's how man got into trouble in the garden of Eden in the first place.

[Sojourner55]

You are correct in saying that mentioned passage (Surah 17:111) is a denial of our Lord Jesus.

What seems strange to me, is attributing a virgin birth to Jesus, but denying God the paternity. Guess it's what decrumpit alluded to: it's an attempt to build on Judeo-Christian doctrine, and then hijack it the whole thing.

[Sojourner55]

Decrumpit, what do think the actual Muslim beliefs are about Jesus' birth. I mean His Father's not human and He's not God--what's in between? What are the alternatives? It's as if today's Muslims are between a rock and a hard place: they can't deny the legitimacy of their virgin birth doctrine, but can't explain it away rationally. What do you think?

[decrumpit]

Decrumpit, what do think the actual Muslim beliefs are about Jesus' birth.

Here is a sura (chapter of the Quran) that talks about Jesus and specifically his birth.

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/19.htm

I mean His Father's not human and He's not God--what's in between? What are the alternatives?

None - he was simply born of a virgin. It was a miracle, just like Mohammed was supposedly born circumcised. It has no great theological significance in Islam.

There was also a hadith (saying attributed to Mohammed) in which he says Jesus was born talking. Here is a great source for what Muslims believe about Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

What do you think?

They explain it away

What about the Twelfth Imam of the Twelvers? (Isn't Ahmadinejad hoping to hasten the coming of this messianic figure by attacking Israel, and instigating a global conflagration)? Are the Twelvers just a fringe cult?

They're about 15% of Muslims, most likely if you ever encounter the subject it will be with a Sunni Muslim (which is the view I presented). Shiites have a very complicated end times theology in which the world becomes apostate, and Jesus comes back to earth to defeat an army of Jews. The Dajjal (antiChrist in Arabic) is also a big end-times figure, but in Islam there are many, many views about this.

Makes sense to me. Weaving in just enough truth to make a lie believable. Typical of the master deceiver.

Very enlightening, decrumpit. Thank you.

You're welcome! Islam is a funny religion because so much of it is based on Christian morality, Christian traditions, etc. Mohammed was trying to make a religion that was appealing to both Jews and Christians (and arguably pagans as well) which is why he made some very "nice" comments about Christians in the Quran.

(The Noble Qur'an, 5:46) “And in their footsteps we sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming the Law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law.”

(The Noble Qur'an, 5:47) “Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed therein”

Of course this follows:

(The Noble Qur'an, 5:83) And when they [the Christians] listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! We believe; write us down among the witnesses.

And finally:

"Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle(Prophet Muhammad) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!”(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

All this is from the website:

http://www.answering-christianity.co...and_gospel.htm

The guy that writes this (Usama Abdullah) is a few fries short of a Happy Meal but he does present the Islamic case well. He also needs to learn the art of presentation and how to use fonts

Of course Muslims deny the resurrection (the central, most important event in the world and for us as Christians) so you can read the section on that. He quotes apocryphal texts (under gnostic influence) to try and disprove it.

[Sojourner55]

Great! Thanks for the resources.

[gringo300]

What I get out of this is, the Koran says that Allah doesn't have a son.

The question is: Are the God of the Christian Bible and Allah the same being?

(Yes, I know Muslims also use the name "God" for the supreme being of Islam, as well as the name "Allah". That's beside the point.)

[decrumpit]

The question is: Are the God of the Christian Bible and Allah the same being?

The "Allah" of Islam is diametrically opposed to the "Allah" of Christianity. Jesus is either God, or he is not. This issue alone can settle the dispute and from my experience, it is really the only thing you need.

[Sojourner55]

What I get out of this is, the Koran says that Allah doesn't have a son.

The question is: Are the God of the Christian Bible and Allah the same being?
(Yes, I know Muslims also use the name "God" for the supreme being of Islam, as well as the name "Allah". That's beside the point.)

Absolutely not, Gringo. The Koran teaches that God does not beget. That leaves no possibility of their god being manifest in the flesh--the very foundation of the Christian faith. Without a sinless man begotten by God as His sacrificial Lamb, there can be no sinless blood to atone for our sins. The Muslim view of salvation is like most other religions: you earn it. It boils down to believing either the Bible--proven right time after time by prophecy, historians, and archaeologists, or the Koran--proven wrong time after time, with many embarrassing mistakes being corrected in reprints over the years.

You can't judge a book by its cover, but you can usually judge an author by His book.

[gringo300]

The Muslim view of salvation is like most other religions: you earn it.

Unless, I'm seriously misunderstanding what I've read of Islamic doctrine, Islam doesn't HAVE a view of salvation.

I've read, unless I've seriously misunderstood, that Islam doesn't teach that people have a sin nature, and doesn't teach that people have a natural inclination towards evil.

A lot of people just seem to ASSUME that all religions HAVE the concept of salvation in them.

If I understand right, Islam DOES teach that people have to earn Islam's good afterlife.

[decrumpit]

Unless, I'm seriously misunderstanding what I've read of Islamic doctrine, Islam doesn't HAVE a view of salvation.

They do. They say that paradise (Jenna, heaven, salvation, etc.) is the result of observing the 5 pillars.

I've read, unless I've seriously misunderstood, that Islam doesn't teach that people have a sin nature, and doesn't teach that people have a natural inclination towards evil.

http://science-islam.net/article.php...le=458&lang=en

You're right, this is an article giving several Islamic ahadith (saying of Mohammed) on this issue.

A lot of people just seem to ASSUME that all religions HAVE the concept of salvation in them.

Christian salvation is unique, but many religions have some concept analogous to salvation.

If I understand right, Islam DOES teach that people have to earn Islam's good afterlife.

Yep.